Interview with Trade Union Activist Meena Menon
Duration: 00:55:55; Aspect Ratio: 1.333:1; Hue: 13.526; Saturation: 0.055; Lightness: 0.205; Volume: 0.185; Cuts per Minute: 21.066; Words per Minute: 154.149
Summary: Meena Menon (MM) is a long-standing trade union activist, and Vice President of the Girni Kamgar Sangharsh Samiti (Mill Workers' Action Committee). She was on the committee that organised the 2004 World Social Forum (WSF) in Mumbai.
Here she talks with Shaina Anand (SA) about the effects of globalisation in a post-911 world, and particularly in post-911 India. Meena argues strongly against globalisation, attempting to bring to our notice the unseen (or largely ignored) pitfalls associated with the same. She lays emphasis on the responsibility of the middle class to effect positive social change, the need for alternative discourse so as to result in a socially and morally responsible populace. and the unseen (or largely ignored) pitfalls associated with globalisation.
The clip starts with a train ride with Ashok Sukumaran (AS) in frame. An inter-state train is visible through the window grill of the local train that AS is riding in. Then the scene shifts to AS filming near Metro where he tries to capture Diwali time, with lights glittering across the urbanscape. Small windows of apartments above Sahani Cafe divulge electrical extravaganzas that mirror the charged air of festivity. Then the scene shifts to the interview location with Meena Menon in the frame. SA and MM chat while they both prepare for the interview to follow
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SA: ... To take us back to September 11.
MM: You want water?
SA: Yes, I'll take (some).
MM: September 11 immediately conjures up this television picture - these towers, the planes. I mean, this is the first time that something like this is so out there, that it becomes home to you, right in your drawing room and you can see. And this became like a 'real' thing for people - this terrorism, which was then immediately used by certain people, like America, to make war on Afghanistan. You know the rest.
The interview begins with SA asking MM to recollect her memories of September 11. MM begins with the visual impact on the psyche of those watching the spectacular collapse, live, on their television sets.
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MM states that 9/11 provided the impetus that America required to justify its economic and political acts.
MM: But what I think September 11 also means - besides the fact that it became a very useful thing for America to use in its whole global design, for using it all over the world - for the first time it gets a justification for its economic and political designs all over the world.
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MM discusses previous protests against globalisation, and America itself, and the effect of the 9/11 attacks on this struggle.
MM: Besides that, it is also important for people like us, who have been fighting globalisation and fighting America. Because it becomes a symbol for one kind of people for that struggle, whereas we have built up a whole mass movement. We are trying to build a mass movement against it. Building up public opinion, building up struggles against it. And the people who have demonstrated in Seattle, Genoa, and all these places - that was the battle against globalisation in America and it was building up at a global level. With September 11 what happened is that it gave this whole anti-American sentiment and struggle a kind of framework that if you fight against America, you are a terrorist. So, this is also important for people like us. And that also has to be taken into consideration. There are some people who say, 'Fine! Even THAT was a strike against America.' But I don't think so. I think that this action has not helped the movement. It has been very harmful to the movement.
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MM discusses the outcome of the 9/11 attacks, stating that rather than proving to be a decisive blow against America, it provided a seemingly reasonable basis for its previous excuses to invade various countries.
MM: It has been harmful. And in fact what it HAS done, is it has helped America to do what it wanted to do. Afghanistan DID happen. And Iraq IS happening. Everywhere, borders are now open for them. They can send their troops. They can put pressure on Pakistan. They can do all these things all over the world. That's what September 11 means.
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MM refers to the various outcomes in the aftermath of 9/11.
MM: It means a lot more than those towers falling, and the American people having to come to terms with the fact that there is a world out there against whom their government has been fighting a war. That HAS happened, yes. It HAS given the American government... It has brought home the danger of making war in other places because it can also come home to you. That HAS happened. But besides that, what is MORE important I think, is the fact that it has given the movement against... It CAN, it has the potential of giving the movement against America, a bad name. That if you are that... (capable of violence against the innocent), then you are a terrorist who kills innocent people, who targets innocent people and doesn't ultimately target the real enemy.
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SA: These are the impacts TO a movement. But if we come back to India, it has been a decade, or a little over a decade...
MM: Yeah, yeah.
SA (continuing): ... Of liberalisation, and clearly one class of people who have been targeted - which have been the middle class. And targeted in the sense, they are the ones who it's impacted.
MM: What has impacted?
SA: Globalisation.
MM: Well, it has impacted them positively.
SA: So, they have become the target audience to... Who identify with America or...?
MM: Not only the middle class. (shaking head)
The discussion refers to globalisation and its impact on the Indian middle class.
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MM: Even for instance, local businesses who are being put OUT of business...
SA: Small scale...
MM (continuing): ... By globalisation. No, even the bigger guys (smiling) whom we would consider the bigger (laughs) companies, even they are being put out of business. And it is STUPID to think of something like a level playing field in the current global context, because there is no level playing field for Indian businesses. Despite that, it must be the only class which is hailing its own demise.
The discussion refers to globalisation and its impact on the Indian middle class.
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MM refers to the fact that one can't really blame the middle class for being positive about the perks they receive as a result of globalisation or liberalisation.
MM: That is what globalisation is doing. If THEY can do it, I don't blame the middle class who is only getting its little crumbs. If an executive gets Rupees 25,000, from that it becomes 40,000, and then your pay is going up to 1 lakh and you are getting perks, and all your pent-up demand for consumer items is being met. You can buy your microwave, you buy an Indian car, and there's a possibility of buying a bigger car. The middle class is always happy with that.
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MM refers to the fact that the perks the middle class receives as a result of liberalisation will be short-lived.
MM: But the fact is that the middle class will also get impacted by this in the long run. The middle class is not just a middle class which wants consumer items, there are also people who belong to this country. When the economy collapses, they are going to be impacted as well. If prices rise, they are going to be impacted. If there's poverty around them, they are going to be impacted.
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MM discusses the attitude of the middle class towards urban poverty, and the continued need for increase the visibility of the poor so that there is no infringement of rights or attempt to sweep the same under the carpet.
MM: How they deal with it is another matter altogether. Today, poverty is all around them. And how is the middle class reacting? Not by saying "remove the poverty," but "remove the poor. I just don't want to see them." It is comfortable to say that. But the poor have to create that visibility and say "sorry, we are also here." And that's the kind of visibility that we are trying to build. We are also here and there's no way that you can throw us out of the city.
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MM expresses her disgust and anger at the belief that the poor are made to feel like they don't belong in the city, and believes that increased visibility would help them feel more secure and more like a legitimate part of society.
MM: I mean, we are talking about Bombay city here. And there are some NGOs, who call themselves NGOs, who have gone to court saying "There should not be slums, there should not be these..."
SA: Hawkers.
MM (continuing): "... poor, these dirty people." I mean, it is so STUPID and INSENSITIVE. And if they can get away with it, so can we. Because we need to create that visibility and say the poor are here to stay. It's as much your city as ours. And if you don't like us - HARD LUCK. YOU move!
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MM discusses the fact that the fisher folk in Mumbai are barred from practising certain aspects of their trade, despite having lived in Mumbai much longer than the complainants. MM's caustic tone reveals a complete bafflement at this attitude towards the fisher folk.
MM: I mean for instance, telling the fisher folk in Bombay, who have been here long, LONG before these guys. I mean, (laughing) you tell the fisher folk that YOU have no right to bring your fish baskets which smell into south Bombay. And you cannot, you know, mess around with your fish outside Churchgate station as it offends us. Hard luck... YOU MOVE! Because they have been there long before. They have been doing this for years and years. If that's the case then we have to say... SORRY.
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MM refers to what she believes to be the actual, longer term outcome of globalisation - a loss of employment due to marginalisation caused by structural adjustment.
MM: So the middle class, yes. Because for them globalisation RIGHT NOW represents those consumer goods, it represents an opportunity to travel abroad. It represents the internet, technology, access to technology, access to jobs outside. But you know what's going to happen? One, when they realise that labour is not as labour - because they also belong to intellectual labour, professionals - they are going to be impacted by the fact that jobs are not going to be available. They have started losing their jobs here because of the MASSIVE marginalisation and entrenchment that happens due to structural adjustment. They are going to lose their jobs.
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MM discusses the rising demand for a multi-skilled work force.
MM: Now it is not just workers who are losing their jobs. Managers, middle management executives are losing their jobs. Now they are saying, "You have to be multi-skilled now. You have to..." - What is that book? - 'Who moved my cheese?' Yeah. So you have to be multi-skilled. You have to be able to adjust to globalisation. If you are not able to do one kind of job, learn to do another one.
SA: The pressure on youth graduating from college - to have a job, what skills do you need? You want to do History, but you need computer skills.
MM: You need to do so many things. You need to be what is called multi-skilled. So what happens to somebody who isn't? What happens to someone who's DAMN good at one thing, but may not be good at another? What happens to those people?
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MM refers to the impact on the middle class when they come to the realisation that globalisation is in actuality responsible for the continued rise of unemployment.
MM: So the thing is that globalisation means MASSIVE marginalisation. A globalised economy means very few people in this country and all over the world. So what happens? You start losing jobs. The middle class is impacted. Soon they are going to realise it is not just fun and games; there are a lot of other things happening out there. They have to make that link that this is happening because of globalisation, which you were supporting before. This is going to happen.
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MM discusses what she considers to be one of the biggest injustices propagated with globalisation - the movement of capital without the subsequent movement of labour.
MM: Two, is that mobility across borders may decrease for tourism, but it is not going to increase for jobs. Because other countries are setting up their immigration laws that you cannot enter there and work. And that is going to impact them.
SA: And that's gotten worse now.
MM: It's gotten worse! Because all the countries are setting up bigger and bigger (laws) because all these Western countries are setting up bigger immigration laws. And in the first place, this is UNFAIR. And the middle class has to understand that when you are exposing your borders, or you are removing your borders to the movement of capital, why are you not removing those borders for the movement of labour, of working people? That this is, in fact, one of the major injustices involved with globalisation. So these things I think the middle class haven't been able to...
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MM explains her involvement with the World Social Forum.
MM: The reason why - for instance, me personally, why I'm involved in the World Social Forum process in this country is so that we can do something about this; to bring home to people, what is the impact that globalisation has. Not just to labour, not just to workers. Because they see it before their eyes, they've been losing jobs, MASSIVE job losses have been taking place. They don't support globalisation, they don't support structural adjustment, because they see the link. But the middle class doesn't. And, to a large extent, the media doesn't.
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MM takes the media to task, saying that the role that it has been playing in its coverage of reform has been insular and non-critical, nothing short of naivety and idiocy. She states that it has been a conscious decision to not report on these issues in an analytical way.
MM: I mean the role that the media is playing is HILARIOUS! Because it's taken as read - "We need reforms." What those reforms are, what it is going to do, what its impact is, what its impact has been in other countries - you NEVER get to read in our press. It is so INSULAR. You are only thinking about... You think that reform generally means that the government will move out of our lives. We'll have to contend with less bureaucrats, red-tape.
SA: There'll be competition also, there'll be...
MM: COMPETITION? That went out YEARS ago, long before they were born. And so the naivety has to be dealt with somewhere, no? I would say naivety if you want to be charitable; idiocy, if you STILL want to be charitable. But it is part of a grand design, if you don't want to be charitable!
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MM continues to refer to the media's biased representation of facts.
MM: They sell this neoliberal ideology in this country and make out that it is going to be the salvation of this country. Which NO FACT, either economic, political reality or social reality at ALL supports that contention.
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MM refers to the fact that the World Social Forum at Porto Alegre in Brazil, from the 26th to the 31st of January, was an attempt to bring together people who are anti-globalisation because it is necessary to consolidate the movement.
MM: Anyway, so (this is) the reason why we are planning to hold this World Social Forum, which has been held in Porto Alegre in Brazil, where all kinds of groups, organisations, Trade Unions have come together, have BEEN coming together for the last two years, in January. During the same time as the World Economic Forum meets in Davos. Last time they did not meet in Davos, they met in New York. But this (is the) agenda of the World Social Forum - who have been affected by globalisation, who have been working on issues related to globalisation together to build up a global movement. Because today the enemies are globalised; by enemies I mean the people who are globalising, the US is globalised. So, it is necessary to internationalise the movement, to organise people who are affected by globalisation. So that is the attempt of Porto Alegre.
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MM continues to refer to the need for a movement to counter the threat of globalisation.
MM: Now 2004 is hopefully going to be held in India. So the WSF process, which is of getting together people who are affected by globalisation - organisations, sections of people - together to do the event here. So that this coming together can really deal with what globalisation is doing here. Because ultimately it is a struggle, it is a fight.
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MM refers to renowned economist
Joseph Stiglitz, who was Vice President of the
World Bank and came out of that system to talk about the impact of globalisation on world trade.
MM: Like Joseph Stiglitz; he is an economist and he said that ultimately in World Trade, if...
SA: Just say who he was.
MM: Even I'm not very sure. Think he was with the World Bank or the IMF; he was the Vice-President at the World Bank or IMF and... He is an economist. He also won a Nobel prize. So he is one of the few people who came out of the system and said, "what's happening?" He talked about poverty. He talked about the impact of globalisation, world-over. (smiling) Maybe we'll try to get him to the World Social Forum 2004 in India. He talked about trade in the world.
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MM recounts Stiglitz's view of world trade.
MM: He said it ultimately all has to add up to zero. So if somebody has a huge trade deficit, it means that somebody has a huge trade surplus. And if somebody has a huge surplus, it means that there is a deficit OUT there. So what happens if the richer countries have huge surpluses, the poorer countries have huge deficits. So It's like this proverbial... Like a hot potato which everyone wants to pass on to everyone else.
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MM states that the economic disparity remains in flux, stressing the need for better research before taking a stance on the issue of globalisation.
MM: As long as you don't have equalisation, there's always going to be these huge deficits and huge surpluses. The idea is to kind of normalise that.You can't say "okay, let America keep its surplus; we'll also create a surplus." It doesn't work like that. That surplus is created on our deficit. (SA: laughs) Which is a fact of economy. So, if our economists don't understand that, and if our middle class doesn't understand that, they need to learn more. I would say they need to study more. They need to study these issues better before taking a position.
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SA discusses the fact that awareness of a situation is key to the individual making a difference.
SA: Now, having said that, we come to the middle class. And we come to the average very apolitical person who perhaps never even has the time of day to scrutinise so much. (The) Newspaper means "Yes. Read it. Something happened in Godhra on the train. Oh! So many riots happened. Oh Shit! Oh fuck!
bandh (strike)! There's no work." Those tensions - there's that everyday living.
MM: That I don't have a problem with.
SA: And there's aspirations as well. Now, obviously, we are not telling them, "join this movement. Get out on the streets. Make a difference," or whatever. But rather "you can make a difference. That's if you learn how to just SEE things." Like you said, "better make yourself aware."
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MM refers to the fact that the negative impacts of globalisation on the lives of the Indian middle class is currently fairly prominent, particularly with regard to the loss of employment, the stricter work permit laws in foreign countries, etc.
MM: But I don't think it is OUT there. I don't think that it is like the middle class has to go out somewhere and find out. I'm saying that your lives are impacted, and are going to be impacted more and more. You lose your job, you are going to be impacted. Your family doesn't have money. If you are not able to...Yyour son or daughter wants to go abroad and study and then work outside; that country is not going to allow them in. They don't give them a work permit. So these things impact your life.
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MM comes back to a point she made at the beginning of the interview - that September 11 has proven to be an excellent issues to harden the already restrictive Immigration laws.
SA: Do you feel this has changed since September 11?
MM: Not just since September 11; it has been happening over a period of time. But this happening more and more. September 11 becomes a nice big excuse to be able to put these restraints in place. But do you think that Immigration laws had anything to do with, or stricter Immigration laws had anything to do with September 11? All over the world, this is one of the things which rich countries and poor countries have problems with each other about. It's not a new issue. So all that has happened since then is that it has become easier to do it (impose these strict laws).
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MM refers to the various ways in which the middle class is being affected by globalisation. She places the responsibility for their awareness at their own feet, as well as the feet of the media, activists and political parties.
MM: But the middle class is impacted in various ways. As I told you, price rise impacts the middle class; inflation does, and inflation is growing by leaps and bounds. And these things are going to happen. So however much you earn somehow, there never is enough. So, I don't know... I don't think that the middle class has to go OUT there. All they have to understand is why this is happening. They will talk about the system which is taking away their employment. But they will not understand where it is coming from and why it is happening. And that also is the role, I guess, of the media, activists and political parties, the political milieu. All these things are responsible also.
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MM explores how people are connected to the impact of globalisation, with an example drawn between the Godhra and the Mumbai riots.
MM: These are the most important issues precisely because it does impact you personally. In fact, the riots in Godhra, it is impossible to disconnect from. You might say, "it is not me." But when the riots happened in Bombay, you felt impacted. Because YOU felt under threat. YOU felt that your house was under threat whether you were Hindu OR a Muslim, you felt you were under threat. So you CANNOT disconnect from something that is close to you.
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MM discusses the fact that job insecurity has made urban life very stressful. People are burning out in their thirties, relationships are affected. Aggression is fast becoming a habit.
MM: And the closest thing is when you are losing your job and you don't have money, and your future is not assured. You might be collecting a very large salary. But you have to keep running, even to keep in the same place, and run REALLY HARD. The insecurity with regard to jobs is real. So those things are happening already. It is not easy. People who are 35 and 36 are BURNT OUT. They are burnt OUT. And urban tensions - I mean, mental health is being affected, relationships are being affected between husbands and wives, men and women, children and parents, these things are getting affected. And just the aggression in the city.
SA: And the aspirations.
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MM explores her what she considers to be the reason for the specific aspirations of the middle class.
MM: In fact, I think those aspirations are a safe place to be. Because if you can get involved in just aspiring to more... Little things. It's something that is handleable, right? If you aspire to a better world, that is a more difficult thing to aspire to.
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SA now poses the question of how globalisation is defined as never having globalisation of labour, when in truth, the labour force formed by the educated elite in India has been globalised.
SA: You know, when we talk about the definitions of globalisation and the fact that there is NEVER globalisation of labour, or equal globalisation of labour, I think, in one way, our educated elite, youth, the intelligent youth - in fact, that specialised crop of youth who get to go to the IIT, and the IIM and USE the country's education system - THAT labour gets globalised. They are all GONE. They are all gone from the country and they are earning EXTREMELY well. And extremely well IN the First World.
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MM refers to the fact that many the only examples touted with regard to the educated elite people are those who have been particularly successful.
MM: Yeah, they are still earning well. But there are problems in Silicon Valley. There are problems in paradise. So it's not all that happy any more. People are losing jobs there. But what they are doing there, instead of coming back, is they are making do with less. And it is also a fact. We may not know about it so much in this country, but it is a fact. That people who have been in Silicon Valley, people who have been earning well - but I'm talking about the really - like the IITans, who have done Computer Science, done really well there, and it's okay. They might be doing well. It's okay. BUT, there are a lot of others who aren't and who are also middle class. So what happens is that the example becomes the cream. What people talk about is the cream. There are a lot of other people, who are not that happy there anymore. And who are having to do with really much less... Much, much less.
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MM discusses the city of Mumbai, the financial capital of India.
MM: And there was something else you said just now about...
SA: We were talking about globalisation of labour.
MM: The Globalisation of labour... Yeah. That I already spoke about. I already told you about that.
SA: One thing I want to talk about now is slightly away from globalisation. But is just in terms of the city of Bombay, which in India, definitely, in South Asia, in all of South Asia, this is the one big city. And I think it's had its history. Not for nothing is Bombay, Bombay. It's just had a very vibrant, urban, modern, industrial city past. That has made Bombay what it is. And that is the past that has been fast eroding, fast disappearing in these ten years of liberalisation. And with it I think, has been a loss of that history. That's also gone by. I want you to talk about Bombay, 'a' in relation therefore to just movements. And just measure that in terms of not so much class... Yes it is a working class and all. But, so that people can get it into their head that that class you are talking about IS a major chunk of the bloody city, yeah? And NOT... This is what drives the city. Which again comes down to everything, whether it is the hawkers, or the people living in the slum, or whatever. It is their city. In sheer numbers.
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MM redefines her stance to display both, the good and bad aspects of globalisation. However, she remains firm on her stance of the pitfalls of globalisation.
MM: Yeah, it is their city. Globalised, yeah. Bombay is a globalised city, and much of the good and bad of globalisation we have seen. The good, I mean, in terms of communication, making the world a smaller place, being able to travel outside, getting INFORMATION from outside, access to information - these things are the good things about globalisation, right? Nobody says that globalisation is a demon. Good things will always happen. When the British came here they built the railways. But it didn't make colonialism a good thing. So, there were lot of people, I'm sure, when the British were here, who said, "The British are doing so many things that are good for us. What's wrong with colonialism?" And I think that you can apply the same thing to globalisation. And so Bombay is seeing that side of it a lot.
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travel
MM refers to the fact that those Mumbaiites who are pro-globalisation have begun to push out those who were here long before themselves, and are maintain their anti-globalisation stance.
MM: But what happens is that we have a history; we have certain economic, social needs and priorities, which have to be based on what WE want and need. Now, to identify those things, UNLESS a city is conscious of what it wants, it will never get what it wants. And in Bombay, everyone talks about, "Oh, it is overcrowded, it is polluted, it is getting more congested, we need to do something about that." But nobody, I mean nobody from the middle class is really dealing with what Bombay is - what is this city's history, who built this city, who are the people who live here - of which we have become a part when we came in, because we have come in later, most of them. The people who are pro-globalisation, have come in much later. And it is like the Arab and camel story. The camel getting into the tent and pushing the Arab out! So what about the Arab? (SA giggles). Like you say, "what do we care? He is outside the tent anyway. We are in here." Now where does that come from?
Arab
Bombay
Mumbai
built
camel
city
congested
conscious
economic
economic
history
middle class
needs
overcrowded
polluted
priorities
pro-globalisation
social
tent
want
MM recounts some of Mumbai's rich history, and its cultural associations.
MM: So now it's important for them to understand what the city is, how it was built. I don't want to go into the whole history of the city. There were so many movements of various kinds - How Bombay has been part of the Independence movement. How there was a movement called 'Samyukta Maharashtra', which was on the formation of Maharashtra, in which people died, which is why Hutatma Chowk is called 'Hutatma' Chowk (Martyrs' Road). Because one of the major police firings that took place after independence, and people died for the creation of the state, and to keep Bombay in Maharashtra. Because Bombay is a Maharashtrian city. Because it has a culture, it's OWN culture. And that culture cannot just be thrown out of the window. It cannot be wished away. It shouldn't be. This is the nature of the city.
Bombay
Flora Fountain
Flora Fountain
Fort
Hutatma Chowk
Hutatma Chowk
Independence
Maharashtra
Maharashtra
Martyrs' Road
Mumbai
Mumbai
Samyukta Maharashtra
city
creation
culture
death
died
formation
history
killed
movement
nature
people
police firing
thrown
MM discusses the marginalisation of the Marathi-speaking public by the English-speaking members of the public.
MM: And if the English-speaking people of the city feel they no longer have to relate to this 'Marathi vernacular,' is that just? Is it fair? And should they be allowed to get away with it (laughing) is what I want to know. I'd say, "NO!"
English
Marathi
allow
city
fair
just
people
relate
vernacular
MM reiterates the fact that the contribution of the Marathi-speaking public, in the arenas of Mumbai's art and culture, should be flaunted.
MM: So the people who live here, who have built the city, who give it its culture, its music, its drama, its art - they are people who speak in Marathi. They are people who work with their hands, who have been working in mills, working in factories, and we are one of the cities which has worker, artist, musicians, theatre people, actors, etc who come from this section of people. We should be PROUD of it. We have to showcase that. This is our heritage.
Marathi
actor
art
artist
built
city
culture
drama
factory
flaunt
heritage
labour
mill
music
musician
people
proud
section
showcase
theater
tradition
work
MM refers to the fact that the globalised-elite have created their own culture that is being touted above Mumbai's own traditional culture.
MM: I feel that heritage really needs to be protected, developed, evolved. Instead of creating this BASTARD culture, which I don't know who relates to that except a small percentage of the... I call them the 'globalised elite.' Nobody else does. And they are 'hangers-on,' who believe they are the globalised elite, but they are actually just hangers-on.
bastard culture
developed
elite
evolve
globalised
heritage
minority
percentage
protected
relate
MM analyses the psyche of the Indian youth, post-globalisation.
MM: Young people are the most affected by globalisation. Simply because if you are older - say 35, 40 - and you lose your jobs. And there's this spectre of unemployment facing you, which is not the same when you are 18. At 18, you are so full of hope, and you don't believe that you are going to go out there into the job market and not find a job. Because you think you are GOING to find that job. And it is only when one generation is NOT able to find that job does the next generation realise that "it is going to happen to us." That's a process which is IN TRANSITION now. That's what is GOING to happen now.
affect
employment
globalisation
hope
job
lack
less
market
people
transition
young
youth
MM refers to the fact that youth primarily spearhead most anti-establishment movements
MM: Now students and young people are always the ones who start to speak, to fight, who go out there and become a 'pain in the neck' for the establishment. They are the people who do it every time. In the 70's they did it. They did it in America, when they realised that whole generations are having to go and fight a war which is not theirs in Vietnam. And in this country, they started talking about the priorities and problems of THIS country, even here. In the '70s. Because globally, young people were starting to become aware and were linking it with their own futures.
1970s
America
Vietnam
anti-establishment
aware
country
country
fight
fight
future
generation
global
link
priority
problem
speak
student
war
young
youth
MM continues to explain why it is the youth demographic of the population that tend to spearhead most of these movements.
MM: This happened here in this country.
SA: With the educated young...
MM: In the campuses. Because I come from there too. And I remember how we fought. When we first started with forming a women's group, and we started talking about women's issues, we started feeling the PINCH of being treated in a different way. We started talking about it, fighting about it. This happened in the '70s. And similarly, there were student movements, student organisations which were coming up, which were talking about not just unemployment, but we were talking about lots of things to do with the future of this country. What is the kind of world they want to BUILD tomorrow? What is the kind of world they want to inherit? So, this was happening then. And this is likely to happen again today. Because, simply because your future doesn't seem to be assured anymore.
1970s
assure
build
capus
educated
fight
fought
future
future
group
inherit
job security
organisation
student
unemployment
women
world
young
youth
Here MM talks about her personal work on the Mill Land controversy. And how land sale and use has polarised the local youth, especially when job opportunities for this income group were lost after the mills shut down.
MM: Now, talking about the area in which I am associated, where I am working - the Mill area. Just because of the Free Market and Land, land speculation is a free-for-all as far as land sale is concerned. And also in development of land. So, the development model that exists today in the mill area is something that leaves out the local youth. So you are not creating any job opportunities for people, which the mills did at one point. You are closing down the mills, not creating new job opportunities for them. But what you ARE doing is setting up these luxury apartments, bowling companies, night clubs, discotheques. Fine, I don't have a problem with discotheques. There are young people dancing and having a good time. BUT, if the other side is happening, where you are NOT creating an opportunity and a life for young people, what is going to happen is that they are going to get up there one day. They are going to create a 'LAW AND ORDER' (gestures quotes) problem by going and breaking it all down.
Meena Menon
Mill
apartment
associate
break
company
create
development
discotheques
employment
free market
job
land
law
local
luxury
night club
opportunity
order
sale
speculation
work
youth
MM discusses the fact that the development process has been more 'exclusive' than 'inclusive,' paving the way for an eruption from the sidelined demographic.
MM: And it happened. I don't know whether people from the Bowling Company didn't talk about it. But people did enter there and damage a few things. These were the people who were not part of that development process. Not part of what YOU call development. And if development doesn't provide those answers, some people are going to fight. Now this is about the poor who are young.
Fire and Ice
company
damage
development
discotheque
fight
phoenix mills
process
MM refers to the reasons one might choose to become a small entrepreneur.
MM: But even the people who are middle class and young are going to face the same problems tomorrow. There are not going to be enough jobs. So what are they supposed to do? Everybody thinks of becoming a small entrepreneur, becoming part of the informal sector. Even if you are poor, you think of going and doing some small job whereby you don't have to depend upon the government, and the system, and a company or a government job. You are better off. So, what you do is you try and become a small entrepreneur.
entrepreneur
face
informal
job
middle class
poor
problem
sector
small
unemployment
young
MM refers to the proliferation of small entrepreneurs as a survival response, stating that their survival will always remain in doubt as globalisation favours large companies.
MM: But if you look at it one way - even if you go into Services, or to set up a new company - globalisation doesn't allow you to survive. Only the really big companies can survive in this global economy. So it's going to happen to them as well. So, what is happening NOW is that people are finding NEW ways of survival. Using their hope in order to build up some new systems. But then, that whole informal economy will have to fight for protection, will then have to fight for survival again. And the new lot who are coming into the economy, who are going to ask for jobs and for survival and for some way to LIVE, they are going to be the people who are going to be locked out. So this is happening everywhere with young people.
Services
build
company
economy
fight
globalisation
hope
informal
protection
survive
system
MM states that apathy will soon become a thing of the past, as global competition heats up, therefore requiring people to band together for survival.
SA: Please say that that's a great thing that is happening.
MM: Which? (smiling)
SA: This. That you will HAVE to, just in fending for yourself. That awakening. That awakening will therefore just arrive.
MM: You were saying about apathy. You cannot be apathetic then. It will no longer be possible to be apathetic then. Because then if you are...
SA: Feel the pinch? Get up!
MM: Yeah. What are you going to do? Alone, if you are not able to fight, you are not able to survive alone. Then you are going to have to come together with other people.
alone
apathy
awake
fend
fight
get up
pinch
survive
MM refers to the tragedy of current Indian politics, where the easy way out is to point fingers at an apathetic youth, or an unrepresentative government. The 'proper' way, according to MM would be to NOT abdicate one's responsibility, and therefore find ways to ensure that those in the political set up are good representatives who can then build an alternative to the existing set up.
MM: See the tragedy today, it's not just 'their' responsibility. I don't think you can point fingers at the young people and say, "what are YOU doing about it?" No, it's not like that. The thing is that the alternatives have to build up, political alternatives which have to be obvious. It's very easy to say, "those political parties are responsible for the problems. Politics is bad. Politicians are destroying this country." That's the easy way out. After all, you cannot do without taking political positions. Because your alternatives are linked with political activity. You go and vote for someone, then you are politically active then. And if you don't vote, then you are again being politically active in the sense that you are your responsibility. And you are putting somebody ELSE there. If you believe that the people who represent you are NOT good, then you have the responsibility to find out WHO should and set up that alternative.
active
alternative
build
destroy
easy
finger
link
obvious
point
political
politician
position
represent
responsibility
vote
young
youth
MM discusses the importance of having the right to vote.
MM: At least we have a vote. We are stupid. There are some people who are stupid enough to say, "what's the point in having this vote?" It's not like that. The fact that in India we do have these democratic processes, these spaces do exist - the same thing in Nigeria, under a dictator, DOESN'T exist. And is that better? Only a person who is EXTREMELY stupid will say that it is better to be in Nigeria, under a dictatorship, than to remain in India, where you DO have some spaces, some democratic spaces. And I would say that tomorrow, YOU might be in a position to have to FIGHT for the RIGHT to VOTE, if it comes to that.
India
Nigeria
Nigeria
democratic
dictator
dictatorship
fight
right
space
stupid
vote
MM refers to
the Emergency from 1975 - 1977, introduced by Indira Gandhi where the right to vote was suspended.
MM: And I know these people will fight, because when Emergency was declared, the trains might have run on time - that is what people talk about now. But, the fact that you couldn't vote set people's backs up. And Indians all over the country, they got up and said, "NO ! This is not working. This is not acceptable. We WANT those spaces. DON'T take away those spaces just to make the trains run on time." And people brought the Emergency down.
1975
1977
Emergency
Indian
Indira Gandhi
accept
country
declare
democracy
effect
fight
schedule
space
train
MM refers to the fact that if one's democratic rights were removed, one would immediately take a stand against this decree. The implication remains that while these rights are present and in effect, one must take advantage of the same.
MM: And so as things get WORSE in our country, as law and order situations will start to deteriorate, precisely because people will HAVE to come out on the streets. People WILL have to talk about a different way of living, and a different political system. When this happens, it is POSSIBLE that in this country they might say, "we CAN'T afford the LUXURY of a democratic system." And then, won't we have to take a stand? Young people are going to take a stand because they don't want their democratic rights taken away.
afford
country
democracy
democratic
deteriorate
different
law
luxury
order
political
possible
right
situation
stand
street
system
worse
MM refers to the fact that the rise of Hindu Fundamentalism has been likened to the Taliban, and the likely reaction to the same impositions being levelled on the women of Mumbai.
MM: People also talk about the Taliban-isation, the HINDU Taliban-isation of this country. Do you think that the women of this country are EVER, EVER going to accept that? They won't. They'll come out into the streets to defend their rights to work, to do whatever they like, to marry whoever they please, to go wherever they like, to travel at night. They are not going to allow the religious (signals quotes) clergy to dictate to them what they should do. It's not going to happen.
SA: Especially not in a city like Bombay.
MM: (Smiling) DEFINITELY not in a city like Bombay. (Laughing) But I think in this whole country. In a city like Bombay, I can't see it happening at all, no.
SA: That's a strange strength.
MM: I guess people have been brought up in that way in this city. They are
not going to GIVE IT UP that easily.
Bombay
Hindu
Mumbai
Talibanisation
accept
allow
clerk
country
defend
dictate
liberate
marry
night
religion
religious
right
street
travel
women
work
MM explains that there are many more occasions to exercise an 'alternative' than by forming a political party with an alternative position.
MM: Another thing is that people get scared when you talk about alternatives. And they think that "okay, are you talking about an alternative party that we can vote for?" But that is not all. That is important too. To have the right people to govern, to have the right people to administer, to have the right people to organise the city. That's very important. But besides that, there are things which are not THAT big, where the question of alternatives comes up before you at EVERY stage.
administer
alternative
big
city
govern
opportunity
organise
party
scare
small
stage
MM provides an example of the various subtexts present in one of life's daily issues.
MM: Like suppose people are saying, "NO flyover in front of MY house." There is also a subtext to that. Who builds that flyover? Why is it built? Of which plan is it a part of? What is the plan of the city? What is the development model of the city? Is it something that is GOOD for the city? These things come up as a subtext in various little issues that affect you at a daily, or at a smaller level.
build
city
development
flyover
model
planning
subtext
urban
who
why
MM explains that it is important for the middle class people to question the relevance of the news that gets published.
MM: And besides that, if you are a professional, if you are a media professional, then you are forced to question - what is the reason why a story on a certain topic DOESN'T go in, and a story about something else. That's glamour, (it) DOES go in. Is that all that concerns people? Is there a role for the media that takes into consideration your social responsibilities? The FACT that you are part of a community? These things are also important questions that people have to deal with as middle class people.
community
consider
deal
force
glamour
important
media
middle class
news-worthy
people
priority
professional
question
responsibility
role
social
story
story
topic
MM suggests that the current apathy might be the result of the lack of an alternative discourse.
MM: I don't know whether it is because of a lack of a discourse at a general level that creates this apathy towards even these small alternatives... But I think it is possible to, with these smaller alternatives, even without a very big discourse happening. It IS possible. It is possible for people to take up issues to do with their neighbourhoods, issues to do with their professional FIELDS. These things ARE possible.
alternative
alternative
apathy
big
discourse
field
issue
lack
neighbourhood
profession
small
MM refers to the importance of questioning various aspects of life, rather than blindly accepting the status quo.
MM: And if you are a student in a college, there are times when you will have to question your syllabus, for instance. Why is it a syllabus will deal with certain things and NOT deal with other things? There are very many institutions in the world who will no longer want to teach Karl Marx. He IS a great social thinker. Not because I'm a Marxist, so that's where I'M coming from. But the fact that it's an important component of political and economical philosophy. So these are important questions that students will HAVE to ask. What is the kind of education that you are looking at, your syllabus, your curriculum...?
Communism
Karl Marx
college
communist
component
curriculum
economical
education
institution
philosophy
political
question
social
student
syllabus
thinker
world
MM explores an example in which an 'issue' finds its way to us, discussing the arena of child labour, and the obvious lack of focus on primary education for these children, in India. But apart from witnessing it, one has to question why it is happening - it's at this personal, experiential level where questioning will lead to alternative thinking.
MM: Besides that, you will also have to ask - why is it that Primary Education is not being concentrated upon? Is it NOT your concern, when you see CHILDREN having to work in the tea-shop down the corner? When you are working in an office, or studying in a college, or teaching in a college, there's this little boy who comes and serves you tea. What happens to him is definitely part of your LIFE; how can one DISCONNECT from that? Do we not have to question why he is not in school? And if he is, why? This is also part of thinking at the smaller level.
child labour
children
education
primary
tea-shop
MM continues to explore the related issues of education and child labour.
MM: If there is a boy in the office who is not going to school, there ARE places where people have gotten together AND set up things for young children. Some alternative schooling, etc. But, side by side, you also have to ask the question WHY no Primary Education, and WHY is it not being made compulsory and WHY are children having to work?
Primary
alternative schooling
boy
child labour
children
compulsory
education
office
question
school
set up
together
why
work
young
MM discusses the fact that the child labour institution is so deeply ingrained that its negation will not necessarily mean the education and welfare of the children involved.
MM: This is part of a VERY big discourse, I can tell you. Because this is part of a VERY big discourse on the 'social clause' in the WTO. And the World Trade Organisation is discussing the possibility of implementing of what is called the 'social clause.' Which is saying that if Labour standards are not implemented in a country, then they will be discriminated against in terms of Trade. BUT, suppose you say that you will NOT buy carpets, or matches, or whatever it is that is using child labour in THIS country, and suppose that trade STOPS, and that company CLOSES down, OR those children get THROWN out of jobs, are they going to get education instead, or are they going to starve?
Labour
WTO
World Trade Organisation
buy
carpet
close
company
discourse
discriminate
earn
education
employment
implement
job
livelihood
lose
matchbox
matches
matchsticks
oppression
option
poor
poverty
shut
social clause
standard
starve
thrown
trade
MM states that the social clause is not the solution to these particular problems.
MM: Which is the reason why people like us have been OPPOSING the 'social clause.' That's not the reply and that's not the SOLUTION to poverty, and oppression, and child labour.
WTO
World Trade Organisation
child labour
oppose social clause
oppression
poverty
reason
reply
solution
MM discusses one of the methods by which these issues can be brought to an eventual resolution - through one's involvement, regardless of the fact that it might not change the entire system. She suggests the need to create consciousness of the discrimination involved in the system.
MM: But we as people in a community, we have to consider children as PART of our community. We have to see whether there's something you can do in your OWN lives. Because THAT ALSO CREATES CONSCIOUSNESS. One would say, "what is the point in educating 3 people?" - this is the other discourse. "What is the point in MY educating 3 children?" But BY educating those 3 children, many people...
SA: "Alone I can't change the world."
MM: You are not doing anything to change the world ANYWAY! But if you DO educate those 3 children, you also THINK about the world. Because you involve yourself in an ACTIVITY which brings you in TOUCH with something that is called 'DISCRIMINATION.' So, I think that is important.
activity
alone
change
children
community
conscious
contribute
create
discourse
discrimination
educate
include
involve
part
people
think
touch
world
MM argues against the seemingly popular neoliberalist 'everyone out for themselves' approach.
MM: And those things used to be done before. But TODAY, there's this feeling, which is a part of this neoliberal philosophy, I can tell you, which says, "I will look after mySELF. I can't do anything about the rest of the world!" You look after yourSELF! And if you are not in a position to do that, I feel BAD for you. But there's nothing I can do about it. Which is not TRUE. And PARENTS who say, "okay, we've done it all. We've tried to change the world; it didn't happen. Now why should I expect my children to; why should they suffer? Why should they get mentally ill thinking about it? (SA laughs) We all got mentally ill thinking about it." But that's negative. That's a completely negative approach. We have to think of facing it.
approach
before
change
children
confront
empathy
expect
face
failure
feeling
individualistic
insane
look after
mad
mental illness
mentally ill
myself
negative
neoliberal
parent
past
philosophy
position
power
present
psycho
suffer
sympathy
take care
today
tried
true
try
world
yourself
MM discusses the fact that one of the problems inherent is that people use excuses - such as the lack of boundaries created by globalisation - to justify their lack of action.
SA: And I think THAT HAS been the problem. When you say there's been a LACK of discourse, there's also been (coughs) alternatives.
MM: Yes. There has been a lack of alternatives.
SA: A lack of VISIBILITY to progressive thought.
MM: Progressive thought - the neoliberal philosophy; there's NO way you can get away from the fact that that IS DOMINATING today in the middle class. And there's a kind of rationalisation of this thinking, where you see people saying, "what can I do about it?" Because globalisation is a very big system. You are not dealing only with the system in YOUR country anymore. Borders are breaking down. So, "how can I FIGHT that? BY teaching 3 children how to read and write? It doesn't work that way!"
alternative
big
border
child labour
children
deal
discourse
dominate
fact
fight
globalisation
lack
middle class
neoliberal
philosophy
problem
progressive
rationale
read
system
thinking
thought
thought
visibility
write
MM questions the state of the economy and the reasons for the same.
MM: But that doesn't make sense to me. Because if you DON'T deal with that, you will not deal with the issue of - "by destroying your borders, what has it done to your economy?" You are not questioning that BASIC thing that has happened - what has it done to your economy? And if this is what is happening to your economy, the poverty you see around you is a result of that. It flows from that. To make those connections, those linkages. And I think the middle class needs to know because they are educated. They can SEE things, they can UNDERSTAND, they can ANALYSE, they READ, they WRITE which is NOT the case for MOST of people in this country.
abdicate
analyse
basic
border
confront
connection
deal
destroy
economy
educate
flow
issue
know
linkage
middle class
poor
poverty
questioning
read
result
sense
understand
write
MM states that abstaining from action and responsibility of any sort then leads to the continued propagation of globalisation.
MM: You are abdicating...
SA: And so THEREFORE a responsibility, just by...
MM: YES! By NOT thinking about it, by NOT dealing with it, you are effectively abdicating your responsibility and that HELPS the system of globalisation to function freely. Which affects ultimately, YOUR sovereignty, because YOU'RE a citizen of India.
SA: Much like corruption in this country. It's because we...
MM (continuing): ... Allow it to happen.
SA (continuing): ... Allow it to happen.
India
abdicating
affect
allow
citizen
corruption
country
free
function
globalisation
help
responsibility
sovereign
system
MM argues that the difference in numbers between those exploiting and those being exploited will soon bring about a change in which the current system will eventually be overthrown.
MM: There's no point pointing fingers and saying, "this is happening and it is too big for us." Because whatever is really big, SEEMS to be really big, is controlled by very few. The numbers are on OUR side. And the people who are suffering are very LARGE in number. And that's why ultimately we will win. Because numbers DO count. And if LARGE numbers of people start thinking, doing, there's no way that a few can GET away with what they are doing.
big
blame
control
count
do
few
finger
get away
large
number
people
point
suffer
think
win
MM suggests the need for people to unite, to begin questioning the system that they exist within, in order to bring about valuable social change.
MM: This is happening globally. Wherever the BANKS, which are ruling the world today are meeting, people are gathering there and asking them questions, which never used to happen before. But the middle class in our country has to sit up and think - "why aren't we doing it here?" There are all kinds of people that ARE demonstrating. We have to make those linkages in OUR country and decide - the sovereignty of OUR people is important, their rights are important enough for us to at least start THINKING about it, writing about it, talking about it. And then, you start doing something about it. That's about it.
Human Right
ask
bank
country
demonstrate
do
gather
global
important
meet
middle class
people
question
rule
sovereignity
start
talk
think
world
write
SA: Let's just take (coughs) another history dose - Back 12-13 years, when another symbolic thing, because we are talking about symbolism. September 11 became a symbolic event, we've talked about Vietnam which became a symbolic event, we've talked about Emergency which becomes a symbol of things that happened. There was the fall of the Berlin Wall and that sets the trend and BEGINS this 'thing' of neoliberalism, and sets up this gung-ho thing, which, if you have to look at it within its frame of History, it's just 'Open Door' policy again. It is that same exploitative thing, it is therefore neocolonialisation. If you see it in that perspective, it's so clear. What are we doing? We are asking them to exploit us for our resources, labour, etc. once again. So just draw that link.
Shaina suggests that neoliberalism, when taken in context with its presentation of the
Open Door Policy, is in fact nothing but neocolonisation in disguise.
9/11
Berlin
Berlin
Emergency
Vietnam
Vietnam
WTC
World Trade Center
clear
event
exploit
historic
history
labour
link
neo-colonial
neo-liberal
'Open Door' policy
perspective
resource
symbol
trend
wall
MM suggests that globalisation will merely lead to another Age of Imperialism in India, as the country is not currently adequately equipped to deal with the resulting economic and political fall out.
MM: No, what globalisation has done is not very different from what we were talking about earlier - imperialism. It's not very different. The opening or breaking down of borders, and the whole Neoliberal concept of Free Market and Free Trade, is not functioning in a vacuum. It is not functioning in an 'ideal' setup. We are talking about people who are extremely poor, and people who have PUT them there in the first place during the Age of Colonialism, and later Imperialism. So you are not talking about a levelled playing field here. You are talking (about a field) where HUGE inequalities exist in the world between the North and the South. If you break down those borders without protecting ourself, what you are actually doing is allowing them to do whatever they like, using their powers, their economic, political powers to be able to do whatever they like in this country. Which means that they'll take OUT what they want, and they are not going to give BACK very much.
Free Market
Free Trade
Imperialism
Neoliberal
North
South
border
break
concept
economic
economy
extreme
freedom
function
globalisation
ideal
inequality
isolate
open
people
political
poor
poverty
power
protect
take
vacuum
world
MM argues strongly against the middle class' apathy in the face of hat appears to be a landslide of evidence.
MM: They are in business, they are not into charity. They are not in SOCIAL WORK. They are there to make money. The MNCs entered this country for what? To make money. So, if THIS is not understandable, I don't see what is. It is completely clear what's happening. And if one disconnects from that, you are not seeing that THIS impact on the economy and the politics of this country impacts YOU because you live here. Unless you are thinking that everybody in this country can go out and make a career, or a life for themselves in the West. Which I think is an extremely STUPID way to think. (SA laughs) I mean, we are HERE. We have to do something about what is happening here.
West
MNC
Multi-National Company
West
business
career
charity
clear
country
economy
impact
life
live
money
political
profit
reside
social work
stupid
think
India
MM discusses the probability that Non-Resident Indians (NRI) rely heavily on the perceived association of the exotic with India, remaining ignorant of the true economic, political, religious and social issues.
MM: The funny thing is that the NRIs for instance, they are there. They feel that they have some kind of responsibility to this country here. But they don't have a responsibility in terms of seeing what is the social and political system of this country, what they can do about it, or relate to THAT. They are into 'exotica.' (SA giggles) They want to use the exotica that this country represents somewhere now. (sound of utensils in the background)
SA: And in fact, even the Hindu Right has given...
MM: Which is why even the Hindu Right has been able to get an edge there. And now it's so FOOLISH that the NRIs, a large section of them, think that India is HINDU, Hindu and Communal and Rightist. Somewhere they have made some linkage like that. Just not at all a fact.
Communal
Hindu
India
NRI
Non-resident Indian
Right
Rightist
exotica
fact
feel
fiction
linkage
political
relate
responsibility
social
MM: That's NOT the way people are thinking here. Just because there are riots in Godhra doesn't mean the entire... Did the whole country go up in flames then? Did everyone start killing Muslims here? They don't see the reality here. And I would say, "it's all very well for you to sit THERE and CROW about it. You are not here." Then I would really say that mean thing. (Laughs) But I have no problem with them being there. FINE. But just don't create a kind of DREAM world for yourself about this country. Try and really get to know what's happening here.
SA: Yeah. "Ghar aaja Pardesi, Tera Des Buliye Re." (Come home, Oh foreigner! Your country beckons to you)
(Both start laughing)
MM: Yeah. You don't really know what's happening.
SA and MM continue to discuss the perceived ignorance of Non-Resident Indians with regard to the reality of life in India. Shaina pokes fun at them by using the opening lyric to the song "Ghar Aaja Pardesi' (Come Home Foreigner) from the popular 1995 movie, Dilwale Dhulaniya Le Jayenge. (True Love will Take His Bride)
Godhra
Godhra
Muslim
beckon
call
country
create
crow
dream
fanstasy
foreigner
kill
know
national
reality
riot
roots
thinking
understand
MM suggests that NRI's tend to migrate and socially integrate, yet fail to effect social change even when they are affected by it. She uses the example of racism, and suggests that NRI's, particularly those in America and Canada, almost propagate the social and political institutions that are inherently racist.
MM: And the relatives of the NRIs, they all think that "anyway, we'll go THERE at some point and make money there. It's okay, let's disconnect from what is happening here." PERHAPS. I don't know. (Laughing) This is not a serious political statement.
SA: No. There's another problem. Because they go there and they get to ask themselves "WHY?" You are living in America, please integrate.
(Laughing)
MM: Yeah, that's another thing.
SA: Whether you can't or not, you are still going to face racism and job cut and whatever. And you socially integrate.
MM: No, but the thing with the NRIs there is that they are not fighting racism there in a big way. As far as possible, they try and make PEACE with it. And a large number of them support the Republicans, they support the Right, they support the... And they don't support the BLACK.
SA: But that's the class thing again. That's the class thing.
MM: Yeah, because it's upper caste over there.
SA: In the UK, it's different. Because the history between blacks and Indians are not that of slavery. They are both colonisations because of Jamaica and all.
MM: But in America and Canada, most of the people...
SA: It's class. England, it was working class that went.
MM (continuing): ... They are people who were Brahmin, upper caste, upper middle class people who have gone there.
SA: The professionals, the doctors, the bankers.
African
America
America
American
Brahmin
Canada
Canada
England
England
Indian
Jamaica
Jamaica
NRI
Non resident Indian
Republicans
Right
UK
UK
bankers
black
caste
class
colonisation
colony
disconnect
doctors
employment
fight
history
integrate
integration
job
job cut
middle class
money
peace
political
problem
professionals
racism
racist
relative
slavery
social
support
working class
India
MM: They try to make it with the Right. They try and settle with the Right.
SA: Oh Yeah! Rich Pakis voting Tory and the rich Indian voting...
MM: Exactly.
SA: Or buy a brick for the temple.
MM: Ram
Mandir (temple)
SA: Golden brick.
MM: That's really offensive.
SA: Other than our money... Vishwa Hindu Parishad IS worldwide Hindu NRIs.
MM: What kind of country are they talking about? Do they really know anything? I really wonder. They are in time warp. They went there some generations. And they are into some kind of 'GLORIOUS India' thing that they want to peddle there in order to make them look better there. And so they feel that...
SA: No, because exotica is HOT in the West now.
MM: Yeah. So you want to use that. And that becomes Hindu and that becomes communal. Be Hindu, that's FINE. But being Hindu IS NOT communal. I RESENT that.
SA: I do too. But then suddenly, the symbols, which to ME weren't communal, if they BECOME communal, I have to REJECT them. Today an Om or a
trishul, I see them in places and I get ALARMED. They become alarming symbols.
MM: In fact, they should understand, the NRIs should understand, what they are doing is...
SA (continuing): MORE than the crescent is to me.
The conversation shifts to the fact that religion and symbols have become associated with communalism.
West
Hindu
Indian
Lord
Mandir
NRI
Paki
Pakistani
Ram
Rama
Right
Tory
VHP
Vishwa Hindu Parishad
alarm
aum
brick
buy
communal
crescent
exotica
generation
glorious
identity
non resident Indian
om
peddle
rich
symbol
temple
trishul
vote
America
George Bush
Hinduism
MM argues strongly against the funding of political institutions that promote communalism by NRIs.
MM: The symbols of Hinduism are becoming to... Young people everywhere, who don't like riots, who don't like bloodshed, who don't like CHILDREN being murdered in the name of religion, are going to turn away from Hinduism. The opposite is going to happen. And you talk of Hinduism. They are not religious, these guys who are responsible for the carnage here. And these NRIs sit in America and FUND them!!! "GET THE HELL OUT OF HERE," is what I'd say. We don' want you. Integrate with America. That's fine. Become Republican. Support Bush. Do your damage there. But don't come here and damage us.
NRI
Republican
bloodshed
carnage
children
damage
fund
hell
murder
non resident Indian
people
religion
responsible
riot
support
symbol
young
youth
SA zooms in to the TV screen. The result a ephemeral audio visual display with various audio inputs, including a song by Remo juxtaposed with various flashes from TV programming. Various bits of news in Hindi and English are heard as voice-overs.
AS: You can set which transitions are real time and which are not.
SA: Yeah I know. But that's only Matrox.
AS: No.
SA: Yeah. Those are Matrox. (garbled)
AS: No. Real time Premier transitions.
SA: It's all Matrox. None of them are Premier.
AS: Premier transitions
SA: Ba, they are not!
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