Koli Livelihood Practice 5 - Interview with Fisherman Darshan
Director: Abeer Gupta
Duration: 00:43:44; Aspect Ratio: 1.333:1; Hue: 35.588; Saturation: 0.228; Lightness: 0.363; Volume: 0.138; Cuts per Minute: 0.709; Words per Minute: 84.737
Summary: This event, along with others under the other event titled Koli Livelihood Practices on the same site, in an interview of Darshan Kathin, Kathin. Darshan was born into that tradition and spent his entire life in the village and inherited the trade from his father and continues to support his family with fishing which is his only business. Darshan also turned out to be the protagonist / principal narrator of the film, Notes from a Neighborhood, which I made for my diploma from National Institute of Design. This was my first encounter with some of the issues haunting the fishing business, specifically in Versova, where it has been a family based occupation for several centuries. Within the space of a city where lines are constantly being drawn on communal, moral grounds and issues of class, sexuality, faith relentlessly politicized, our engagement with our immediate neighbourhood drops only to mere necessity and differences get the priority in our discussions. It is said that often the study of others throws more light upon us – but often it is the definition of the other that is faulty.
This particular interview with Darshan was one of the very first interviews I ever did. It was therefore a vast learning experience and though I did not end up using any of it for various reasons it is significant for various other ones. While I had befriended Darshan a bit and had been welcomed within his circle of friends and family, looking back I was still not very comfortable with him. That is one of the reasons why often our conversation does not flow very smoothly – as I had not resolved in my mind my own position vis-à-vis some of the things we were talking about.
The first major learning that came from this was – when we are first stepping into another world, are we in a position to understand what we are being told? What kind of research of awareness does one require to generate to be able to engage comprehensively with the subject? Often we are given information but while a person like Darshan speaks from a context of his entire life, my association with his world had been comparatively short. At a very simply level most of these questions are resolved in time, the amount of time and the intensity of the engagement determines the clarity one forms. For me, reviewing and annotating this interview was a reality check of sorts in how much more I needed to cue myself to the space and focus my efforts on the specific context I wanted to unravel.
Andheri
Darshan (D): My name is Darshan Kathin, I am 32 years old. My mother, wife and 2 kids live here.
Abeer (A): And what do you do?
D: I am into this fishing business.
A: And how many people do you have to work with?
D: I have to coordinate with 5 men on my boat and 2 on shore so in total 7 people.
A: So you pay him a salary?
D: Yes, they work for us, we pay them.
A: Tell me about your extended family.
D: My grandfather had 3 sons, eldest my father, his second son, my uncle lives in the house in front of ours and a third who is a doctor, he has his own dispensary. My uncle is also in fishing. He also had 3 daughters they got married and are settled in their lives. Now I am living separately in this house.
A: You are the only son of your father?
D: Yes I am the only son of my father.
A: Tell me a bit about the Koli society in which you were born and grew up.
D: Earlier it was more traditional, but now with rising pollution koli community is facing lot of problem. Earlier we used to drink water from the wells. There was no problem, but now even tap water many diseases are happening. That time hardly anyone wore spectacles, now every household has someone wearing specs. It used to be said that if you eat fish – there are some amino acids in them which are good for your eyes, but there's nothing like that. These days everyone has to wear spectacles.
The water here, in the creek has got terribly polluted, from Jogeshwari, Andheri, up to Malad all the small industries, cow and buffalo sheds, along with the residential societies empty their waste into the creek.
Once this creek was a reason to bunk school, we'd go catch fish … but now leaving alone catching fish, the few you'd get would smell of kerosene or some acid. They are not edible to catch fish one has to go deep into the sea. The water is polluted to that extent.
Darshan sitting at the steps of his home. One can see the inside of this sitting room.
Kids hover around.
The space itself where one conducts the interview is vital. We had interviewed Darshan perched on the steps of his own home; I had felt that the backdrop of his family home might be important to assert his local identity. But clearly he was not comfortable with some of the stuff I intended to discuss. So while he does mention some important facts they did not have the correct pace or tonality for the film and thus could not find a place in the edit.
Second the importance of the fields of vision, the angle and magnification in which we see our subject became evident. There is a very delicate sync which the framing of the subject has, with what he or she may be saying. This balance is often hard to strike but again I was forced to think of it after this experience. Often the camera too close to character and due to the sharp angle the focus shifts unnecessarily.
Jogeshwari
Malad
Versova Macchimar Nagar, Versova, Mumbai
family
koli
pollution
small industries
society
versova creek
Versova Macchimar Nagar/Vesave Gaon
A: Do you notice any difference in the relationship of the Koli fishermen with their trade?
D: Huge … earlier what ever nets you carry …you could catch fish easily and close by. They were happy as what ever fish they would catch was enough to survive on. Their whole year would go by, they did not need to save … but now their kids are getting out the business, they are doing some courses or diplomas as they have realized that the fishing business is not the same. Though there is development in the fishing business, but the Government facilities are decreasing … however we are struggling for it. There are some decisions pending on the 17th. On 17th if they give us the subsidies they had promised us. If they work out in our favour we will start our business. Otherwise we won't take our boats out this year. We will not do fishing.
A: The remaining time of the year?
D: Yes, whatever time is left this year.
Versova Macchimar Nagar, Versova, Mumbai
For a long time, while consciously working on representation, I myself was stuck to these ideas of what an ideal person from the fishing village should be. Looking for that character which fit my pseudo-romantic notion and a part of my questioning here reflects that. It took a considerable amount of time for me to get out of that mode myself.
One of the reasons I eventually got friendly and continue to connect with him is because we found a lot of things in common. Most importantly we were of a similar age group, and shared very common interest in Hindi films, so eventually a lot of our discussions centered on that and got more interesting.
fishing business
subsidies
trade
A: Earlier there was one person who would go out fishing. Even now you have the business, but do you call yourself a fisherman? Would you ever want to go and fish yourself? What is the difference?
D: Earlier there were small boats, at that time one or may be two people would go out in a boat to fish, so at that time you would get the feeling that you are a fisherman. But now the style has changed, because now you have to go deep, for that you need a bigger boat, a more mechanised boat, for that you need people - workers. Now there are boys, some of whom are even graduates, they feel sometimes that they ought to go out with the workers but the situation of the sea does not suit everyone. They are not used to it … but they are trying … because they know that if the business is not there their homes and basic livelihood will cease to be.
A: Why do you think people moved away at the first place, from personally going in the sea and fishing?
D: Pollution is the main thing, there was an uncertainty, and they didn't know when the business would come to a stand still, so Koli's started sending their children to get diplomas and degrees. So it is due to the pollution that the fishing reduced and thus kolis stepped back from fishing.
Versova Macchimar Nagar, Versova, Mumbai
A: And the land? Where did the land issue start cropping up? People, have started renting or selling land, migration into the village? Is it also related to decline in fishing?
D: See when the fish decreases, your income falls, so those who have space are forced to put it up for rent in order to run their households – to make up for the fall in income. They cannot construct on it, there are problems with the municipal corporation, neighbours etc. The people staying there are there on an 11 month lease as they are also scared that their land may be grabbed, so they prefer these make-shift shanty type settlements.
A: So when did this leasing out of the land start?
D: Earlier it was very rare, may be a 100 out of a thousand people. The rent was also low
A: So when did outsiders first come in the village? 10 years / 20 years…
D: No, no they have been here longer. They have been around for more than 10/20 years. E.g. there is a school in the koli village, you need a school master. He'll be of some other caste, Marathi may be, then the shopkeepers. Kolis had no concept of running shops. Then came hotel people, bhaiyyas… but still they were less and they were totally involved with the Koli society, participated in all our festivals.
A: "were?" do they not participate anymore?
D: No they do … but earlier the relationship was more personal, like say if some local team won a match, they would buy sweets for everyone. But now everyone has become business minded. Some still help … as their youth has also been spent here with Kolis. They are connected to kolis.
The discussion on land had to come up. After all it was Bombay and in those days a huge anxiety was growing about what would happen to the village if the Versova - Ghatkopar metro rail project decided to encroach. There was also a project which was supposed to build a bridge across to Mudh Island but that too has been stalled for a while.
Versova Macchimar Nagar, Versova, Mumbai
land
migrant workers
A: See there was an earlier system … how did that break up? The traditional family engagement? Just because of the trawlers? And then the outside laborers coming? When did they start coming in, because in the earlier system they were not required?
D: At that time, the Kolis were also few in number … with marriage etc the families increase … the business potential in each family increases … and the outsiders started coming in the business.
A: But working hands are increasing …why get people from outside?
D: See if one person has two sons, so his business increases, so he realizes that more hands means more business. Plus people got to know that Versova is a good spot for fishing business … so people also started accommodating outside workers to increase their output. See people want to do fishing, but they also want to earn money. So they think it is better to get more people from outside and train them to work for us. That is how the earlier system of fishing changed. And the whole business went in the hands of the outsiders.
A: What do you think? What will be the result of this present style?
D: Well in the future, this is going to lead to problems. The main owner from the new generation will not know the intricacies of the trade. Plus the workers nowadays are different, they are lazy, we fill the boats with diesel and send them, they go to the sea and go off to sleep. Earlier the workers had loyalty and integrity. They knew that what ever they catch determines the profit and their salary. These days the workers are on an eight month contract, they know they will get that anyways. So that earlier sense of responsibility is not present anymore. And there's the danger also as the business is becoming solely dependant on them.
A: What are your ambitions, about your business?
D: For me it is important that at least one person from the family remains in the trade, either me or my son. And whatever development happens in terms of technology – wireless systems, fish finder etc, need to be there on my boat. If I am able to work with them, incorporate that into my trade I'll be very happy.
Versova Macchimar Nagar, Versova, Mumbai
The stark reality is that in spite of its vicinity the whole mood and temperament changes drastically once you enter the village. Suddenly the mad pace of the city disappears and suddenly people seem more human. There is a distinct flavor, in the settlements on either side of the creek which transports you into another time.
For some years now, following the route of Juhu or Worli Koliwada, a large number of young people who either work in the lower order of either film or other service industries are also migrating in the village. Purely because of cheaper housing options. Primarily the deposit money is drastically less and maintenance costs are negligible.
ambitions
future
labour
marathis
migrant workers
outsiders
A: Technology is fine, but do you enjoy this business? I am still trying to gauge the difference between now and the past.
D: This difference is due to the development
A: But development is not always bad?
D: No … earlier the city was a good 4/5 kilometers away and the fishing village was in one corner. The interaction with the city was limited to once or twice a week, sometimes for some spare-parts of machine or for repairing nets and the women of course who would go to sell the fish. But slowly because of development the city has come to our door step … buildings have got connected to the Koli villages, so the villages started to think that the way the city people lived, was the way… we work so hard so we also deserve such homes, so slowly, without even realizing the Koli's are trying to copy these people. Like they would leave the traditional ways of wearing the saree (traditional Indian dress for women) and wear it in the way the rest of the people in India wear. Same with the men, they left wearing the roomal (a triangular cloth tied around the waist), they would wear half and full pants.
A: Like Kamala Hasan fishing in cropped jeans?
D: Yes … So slowly these developments and imitating people from outside … sometimes we think that our kids …would they even get or know how to wear the saree that way.
Versova Macchimar Nagar, Versova, Mumbai
development
technology
A: When did you see the TV for the first time?
D: I must have been 3 years old and at that time there used to be only 3 or 4 TVs in our lane out of which 1 was in my uncle's house. And at that time the people who had TVs were not into fishing, they were doing country liquor business…
A: They used to make more money?
D: Yes … illegal money, their income increased … the fishermen were different they would fish the amount they need to sell. But those into the country liquor business, they got TVs, fridge, those became status symbols, they were considered rich. And that time Dosti (film's name) was coming on TV and that is what I saw for the first time on TV. And then slowly number of TV started increasing in our village, now everybody has it. My in my house TV came when I was 25 or 26 year old.
A: You bought it yourself?
D: Yes.
A: How did the liquor business make its entry in fishing village, did koli people enter this business?
D: The Koli folk drank, they needed their drink, before they left and once they were back, they would have their drink and go off to sleep. But today people drink for style. Today if father and son drink together, it is fine. But if the son secretly goes to beer bar the he will definitely turn into an alcoholic, he would get spoilt.
A: No I was asking about the money that came in
D: The money came in, the money was used to make a house or a boat, or they bought a place. Those who tried to keep the money at home, that money disappeared soon … in one thing or another, paying hospital charges etc.
There were a few the liquor kings, what ever they bought and kept has remained, and rest vanished.
Versova Macchimar Nagar, Versova, Mumbai
country liquor
dosti
hindi movies
television
A: Even today there is segregation within the village; there is a clear disparity between the rich and the poor. How did this disparity occur?
D: No that disparity between rich and poor was always there. Those who were rich, in them some were business minded. They had the knowledge of banking they thought of the future and they secured their savings. But mostly (50%) they blew it off in drinking, partying etc… the business minded saved the cash and they developed on that … the rich in the village may be 20 or 30 %. Like if you see those who wear gold they are all fake gold, the real gold is gone or what ever is left is in Apna Bazaar credit bank and the premium they are getting off it they are using in the fishing business.
Because there is no alternative to fishing.
Outsiders think that they have so much gold, if they wear so much then how much they will be having at home. But it is important to understand the role that gold plays in the lives of the Kolis, this is their bank. From long they know that gold is the only thing which comes to use in a crisis. They might not have a savings account but they will have some gold.
A: Well in any case the women dealt with the money and the saving and they believe that there is some safety with gold at home.
D: Yes and they run the household. The man earns the money but how to make the best use of it is in woman's hand. If they have 5 or 6 thousand they would not want to spend it. They will bargain, save. Before going to bank they will think of buying gold and make some ornament. Then the grandmother will give her granddaughter some piece of gold, she will give to her daughter so it works as a family heirloom. Thus most of the gold that you see now is old. The value of that piece is priceless and it can be understood now as they don't have the design or the skill to make them now. Their heart is attached to that gold.
Versova Macchimar Nagar, Versova, Mumbai
The Koli women and specially the grand matriarchs you see so frequently in the village became a subject I decided to treat separately in a film, A Day's Job. Some rushes from that film are also available on this site. But this very discussion lead to the making of that film, as after this Darshan continued to point out interesting little details every time we passed by.
gold ornaments
koli women
A: Tell me more of the women, how did they manage all this, inside and outside. How do they get so much energy?
D: See when a daughter is born, as she is growing up, the mother will send her to school, but on holidays or Saturdays (half days) their target would be to take them to the market. They will show them, where the money comes from, from where their household is run. So even in informal playful manners it is taught to them. Like if the urban kids play with dolls, they play games of selling fish. They get training from childhood, so later in life this seems an ordinary part of their life, nothing that they have to learn anew. Then someone who is fast and smart earns a bit more, but everyone is able to learn. These things are taught to them from childhood. So in copying their mothers they learn, and the training of how to conduct themselves when they get married are all taught on a day to day basis.
A: These days a lot of men are going out of the village and pursuing different careers. Is there any such trend with the women?
D: Yes they are being educated and trained in all walks of life but even today people are not prepared to send their daughters outside the city, outside Bombay, if they get a job. If a girl is well educated and she gets a good job then she will get good marriage proposal. But the village people still believe that if the girl is married to a local boy then her family life, her happiness and sorrow will be within the same social circle. But even today they are not ready to send them out. Now 70% of the girls are more intelligent, the boys are all duffers. The true value of education is slowly being understood by today's generation and people are diversifying into varied fields, like say hotel management, technician, electronic or computers. The things that the earlier generations did not do, today's generation is doing all that.
Versova Macchimar Nagar, Versova, Mumbai
city jobs
koli women
A: Someone was telling me that women sometimes face this problem, they are told they smell of fish …
D: No nothing major like that, but yes they have problem in traveling. The women are told that if you want to board a bus it's fine but don't get your crate of fish … but when 2 or 3 are together they would say take the luggage fare from us, we'll put it in the luggage space in the BEST double Decker, or if it is a small basket we'll put it under the seat … but then these days women have started using shared rickshaws or tempos so that is not such a big deal now.
A: Are there any instances of women doing other jobs other than selling fish?
D: Yes …lots, my aunt is a doctor, another cousin aunt works in HP, she's a manager.
A: So it's not that women do not work outside?
D: No, they are very talented. As I said 70% of the women are educated and they are placed well. Like one girl from our village who is a civil engineer has bought a flat in that Raheja tower in Mudh …
A: Really? How does she feel living there?
D: She's become a civil engineer. So her standard of life has also gone up, her husband is also a civil engineer …
A: How do you feel about all this construction? How far is this going to go?
D: Well everyone is talking about it that may be we will all have to go somewhere else. But somewhere there is a fear that we will be driven off. It might not happen but there is a fear that outsiders will come and drive us out of this place.
See slowly places have been given for rent, so suddenly if someone is in need of money and is forced to sell his house … the person from outside won't come to live here in a village, he will have his own standard of living outside. He will construct a building there and put it up for sale. So one by one we will loose plots then the mark of the traditional Koli village will soon disappear.
Mudh
city jobs
koli women
A: But are there people who are being forced to do that?
D: Let's say there is a person who has a plot of land, he also has a daughter to marry off, and today also marriages are an expensive affair over here. If the girl is married from long before everyone will know about it. Almost the whole village and people of villages all over India have to be invited. If someone is left out then that person takes it very personally. They remember and it turns into rivalry. And the worst of it is the day before marriage the style of drinking that day is very different. They have to serve alcohol to everyone and that is a huge expense. So at such a time or otherwise these days medical treatment is also very expensive. People usually don't pay attention to it when they are young … but as they are getting older these things strike … the person is already old and the source of income has stopped, at that time where will a person go … if they have not saved enough then the land is the only thing that is left.
A: So this land was also a kind of saving which is decreasing …
D: Yes … absolutely and the space that was used to dry fish, buildings are made on them. The boundary is also slowly disappearing.
Darshan had once mentioned the Narmada Andolan, in this context in a later interview. I had first felt that the comparison was perhaps not very appropriate, but after discussing with Darshan I was amazed with the information and the clarity he had on the matter.
Significantly in discussions with other elders of the village I this issue always invoked a strong sense of identity and belonging, something that everyone was trying to find a way to address. The villagers of Narmada Andolam seemed to have a tremendous inspirational effect on them.
Versova Macchimar Nagar, Versova, Mumbai
development
real estate
town planning
A: The people coming from outside are they bringing in a change to the way of life, the style of working … I see a lot of interaction, especially among the kids, which is nice … but how much of the koli culture are the kids here growing up with?
D: See, 20 years ago and now … there is a generation gap. And yes there are a lot of different of people coming in, they have their own, practices, festivals, which they celebrate at home, but they also get involved in the local Koli festivals etc pretty quick. Like Holi, it is celebrated all over, but here it is different, they get involved and enjoy themselves. But just like there are good things, like the carpenters, technicians who are coming, there are also certain bad elements coming in, like you know these Bangladeshis or beer bar people, thus with good things, bad elements are also coming in. That is one difference between earlier days and now, earlier there were no bad elements around…
A: Yes right … earlier everything was good, and now all these are bad …
D: These bar people. The police come and take them away sometimes in the middle of the night, then leave them on the road after they have taken some money from them. These girls who dance in beer bars and do sex work…they live in these shanties at the back of the village. They come and go in the middle of the night.
Bangladesh
Versova Macchimar Nagar, Versova, Mumbai
folk culture
migrant labour
A: Ok what is the difference in say Holi from how it is celebrated now and how it was celebrated earlier?
D: There is a lot of difference. Earlier Holi was a more traditional affair, these days it's less of Holi and more of drinking and partying. Earlier there was a system that each boat was dressed with flags made of a nice sarees and they were taken around. But now as the business is mostly in the hands of workers, they take leave during Holi and the villagers want to spend holi at home so the boats do not go out now. That tradition is almost lost.
A: and what about other festivals like say Diwali?
D: Be it Diwali or any other it is not celebrated how it should be. There is more of competition now, like if I get crackers for 10 rupees then the other man would say I'll get for 20 rupees. That is how the competition among people started increasing in all festivals.
This question had to asked, as one of the first images which caught my attention during my initial research was a photograph of the dressed up boats on Alibagh Beach on the day of holi by Rafeeq Illias.
Versova Macchimar Nagar, Versova, Mumbai
folk culture
migrant labour
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