Many People Many Desires - Interview with Mahesh Dattani
Director: T. Jayashree
Duration: 00:29:39; Aspect Ratio: 1.333:1; Hue: 33.857; Saturation: 0.118; Lightness: 0.453; Volume: 0.159; Cuts per Minute: 0.101; Words per Minute: 120.481
Summary: Footage from the film Many People, Many Desires
Mahesh Dattani talking about his foray into writing about sexuality and gender.
So Mahesh, how did you get into writing and writing about sexuality?
Well... I started writing in the mid 80's and my earlier writings well: connected with artistic expression and individual expression and societal conflicts and things ...and then think from my fourth play till about the sixth play that is 'Bravely fought the queen' and even 'On Muggy Night in Mumbai' which has a very strong theme of gay love.
There is another radio play called 'Seven steps around the fire' so three of my plays deal with alternative sexuality, expression of sexuality, and I guess it is just you know with any work of writing its reflective of the phase the creator is going through so it just seemed natural for me to move into areas of sexuality and gender, constructs of gender, so I suppose Bravely fought the queen did touch upon it. It focused more on the sexuality of the woman, heterosexual woman, but there is closet homosexual in the play and how it affects the woman who is married to him, who is very sexually alive and unfulfilled because she is married to this closet homosexual.
And then came 'On a Muggy Night in Mumbai', four years ago, it was commissioned by Lillette Dubey -a well known theatre person, by then I had some kind of knowledge about the growing gay sub-culture in Bombay and I had models to work on and again if you really look at the true theme of the 'On a muggy night in Mumbai' it is about honesty in relationships, there is this interesting triangle where you have a heterosexual woman and 2 gay men and one who is very comfortable with his sexuality, and one who isn't and then thats really what forms the triangle.
I think that it just seemed natural for me to move into this, as a contemporary urban playwright you know my concerns and I suppose the concerns of a lot of my peers were to do with sexuality, class, identity or gender, I think these are universal themes.
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Mahesh Dattani talking about his play 'On a Muggy night in Mumbai'.
Q: How was 'On a Muggy Night in Mumbai' received when you first wrote it?
Well.. the play was received very well, I did go for the opening night and I could see the actors were really good and they got good applause, it got mixed reviews, some critics liked it, some people didn't like it, which is fine and the play went to New York as well, but it didn't have the kind of run which my other plays tend to have and I think that could be ...could well be to do with the theme. All said and done there are people who still feel squeamish about sexuality especially alternative sexuality.
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Mahesh Dattani talking about translating his play into a movie. The film 'Mango souffle' is an adaptation of his play 'On a Muggy night in Mumbai.
On a muggy night in Mumbai
Q: After a few years you made it into a film. The play is more serious and it has a sad ending whereas the film is much lighter. Was that a concious decision?
That's right. Yeah, that's right. Again I felt, you know there was a danger with the play, although I saw it as caustic, acerbic humour there was a tendency amongst the audience to laugh at the characters rather than with the characters and film you know is an even more sensitive medium, you go slightly wrong politically and it can have you know a completely adverse effect, the way you don't want it to have and I really thought I'd rather focus on the drama,look at the conflict, the dramatic conflicts between these three central characters and there is a fair amount of humour in the film as well but I think I sort of put more emphasis and focus and did give it a slightly more ambiguous ending, you know towards the end where he leaves both of them and he can't fit in. Mostly because he has not come to terms with who he is. And its this ultimate image of tearing the photograph, this image that everyone was not able to come to terms with. In that sense its a little positive but it does have a wistful note, yes.
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Mahesh Dattani talking about the response to his film 'Mango souffle'.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0355740/
Q: And what was the response to the film?
Again I think it was a mixed response, there were a lot of people who didn't like it and quite a few people who did like it very much, and again it did very well in the international film circuit but didn't do so well locally. We were fortunate to get a commercial release but it didn't do well by any standard locally.
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Mahesh Dattani talking about the box office performance of his film 'Mango Souffle'.
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Q: What is the reason for that?
Its hard to say. I am not so sure if we had a bigger budget, or weather it was better made, or you had better names whether it would have been commercially successful, because by and large audiences, cinema audiences in our country are looking for something very very specific and it has to be mainstream, accepted style, story and its just variations of what they have already seen. I think it is stepping into the unfamiliar that the audiences are not willing to do unless you do have something of the familiar and you add something that is unfamiliar. They are not going to go into unexplored territory so easily so you know its a combination of everything. Probably my failings as a filmmaker for sure, the subject matter, the budget of the film, the non star cast. So it all sort of went into you know its lack of box office appeal, and at the same time am very happy that I made it and I think I have no regrets about it.
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Mahesh Dattani talking about portrayal of sexuality in Indian cinema.
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Q: Of late there have been these Hindi movies which have side characters who are gay and its been an increasing trend. 'Bollywood Bollywood also had one, so how do you see these characters coming up? Are these positive images or negative images?
Well I think they are completely negative images. I saw 'Kal Ho Na Ho' which is a very entertaining film but at the same time whatever emphasis there is om homosexuality, it is to milk out some humour and you know the whole humour is when this maid assumes that these two men are sexually active with each other and the whole thing about normal, and they end up saying yes yes we are normal and we are not abnormal. Its very basic but you can also say the movie is poking fun at everything, Gujratis, Punjabis. I mean it so maybe it is the style of the film. So I think the Images are - considering the politics of sexuality where there is marginalisation when it comes to people with different sexual orientation than the norm - it is negative yes. We have no positive images coming out of our cinema.
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Mahesh Dattani talking about a space for alternate sexuality in Indian cinema.
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Q: You think it'll create more space for visibility in the public realm?
Definitely. I think if you look at the larger picture this is probably the beginning. I think this is something a commercial filmmaker ten years ago would have never even dreamt of putting both his heroes you know even to suggest that there is something sexual going on between them would have been completely taboo. That at least you know that' s happening now. I suppose the first phase would be ridicule and then the next phase might be anger or violence and finally there would be tolerance and there would be acceptance and then finally indifference, who cares, you know.(laughs)
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Mahesh Dattani talking about gay movement in Bangalore.
Q: Where is they gay movement here, in the city? In the last ten years?
I think the gay movement in Bangalore - like in any other city in India like Bombay,Delhi, probably Calcutta as well - is emerging. It has not made its presence felt strongly but people are aware that there are support groups. There are gay groups, that there are you know, seminars being held on sexuality and related subjects. People are getting more aware that all this is happening but its not that visible as yet you know. You don't have pride marches or things like that happening and I am glad to know that things have come so far and its not far away when yOU would have greater visibility, tolerance and acceptance.
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Mahesh Dattani talking dealing with alternative sexuality within the Indian context as opposed to viewing it as a western construct.
Q: Going back to your play, you talk about or represent a whole cross section of people, you are not just talking about gay men. Also people say that 'gay man' is a western construct and has nothing to do with India. Our kids go abroad, they learn to become gay and come back. A lot of middle class parents and policy makers have said it on record that it is not a part of our culture. So, when you wrote this play - which is very much situated in the Indian cultural context, today's India - what were you thinking and how does that go down? Or was there no debate of this sort at all?
I didn't have this kind of debate that it's a western concept but you know I am aware that that's one form of denial that you know that it can't happen in my family, it can't happen in my culture, it has come from outside. Its just one form of denial and there is another form that it doesn't happen at all, it is unnatural and stuff like that but I guess when I made the play and the film I really did not have that kind of issue because my plays as you have pointed out deal with a whole range of issues which are very very Indian, urban definitely and Indian most definitely so. And sexuality as well, you know I perceive it from my own society from Indian,urban society and it cant be anything but Indian.
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Mahesh Dattani talking about representational aspects of his characters in the play and the film - Mango souffle.
Q: The play and the film, what is interesting is that there are gay but lets say within that there are the different types. There is the drama queen, there is a married man, there is a bisexual man, there is the macho man and each of those is represented in the characters.
Yeah thats true. In fact a lot of the criticism has been about the representational aspects of these characters. But that was a deliberate artistic choice I had made because that was some kind of a pathway into understanding where they stand in the society and you do have an entire range of characters and behaviour - gay, straight or anything in between and I think I did sort of want them in broad strokes and that was a deliberate choice I made about the characterisation in the plav and even in the film. And I thought that would be a kind of stepping stone for the audiences to understand and delve into realms which are unknown to them and when I say unknown to them I mean it could be unknown to themselves about themselves as it is unknown about other people.
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Mahesh Dattani talking about politics of identity as portrayed in his film.
Mango souffle
Q: When you say people had problems with the representation, is it because the gay politics here is exclusive to identities or is it merely the discomfort of talking about a whole variety of people?
I think it's a bit of both. I think there is a great deal of discomfort talking about these things in public areas like you know I was invited to a college after 'Mango souffle' was released, they had a screening there and lot of youngsters said that its highly unnatural. Why did you make a film on this and this whole thing - why make a film?
I think this suggests that the subject is a deeply uncomfortable subject to talk about and at the same time you have a more enlightened group saying - oh these are merely representational characters, they are stereotypes, we don't reallv get to know them as individuals. So it is interesting and you see where both point of views are coming from. They are perfectly valid points of view. Why make a film on this subject? You can see how uncomfortable these people are, obviously this is something they haven't discussed or seen. They have no images to go by, no icons to go by, no morals to go by. The more academically inclined ones find that there is not enough intellectual insight into the characters, they probably need something deeper, a bit more complex perhaps, they needed it to meet their academic or political interests or whatever. I respect both points of view, I think they are both my audiences and I need to look at that seriously. At the end of it I am an artist and I make my artistic choices. There is nothing right or wrong about this situation.
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Mahesh Dattani talking about sexuality in urban India.
Q: Do you think there are more and more people coming out, talking about their sexuality, saying - this is who we are and this is what we want. Do you at least see that in urban India?
Oh yes definitely. I think after the play, surprisingly even more than the movie. I had very many email messages and cards coming in saying thank you for making this film and I'm gay or my sister is a lesbian or I think my son is gay and all those kinds of letters. And even ones where you could see that it was coming from a gay perspective where there was just the delight of having seen a film that they could relate to or see a part of themselves projected on stage. That was very encouraging and positive to have that feedback. It's a question of time. what we need is more representation in media, more images, more comfort at maybe having a gay neighbour or people of the same sex living as partners, Whatever. We have to reach a comfort level which is going to happen with more visibility and positive images coming out of the media.
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Mahesh Dattani talking about politics of sexuality.
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Q: Some of the people we were interviewing were saying that we need to blend in, we need make a case for ourselves and we cannot flaunt our sexuality. What do you have to say about it?
I'm sure there are different stands like with any political issue. Like with feminism some said that they have got to burn their bras and others felt that no, we have to show that we are equal to men, others felt that we need to show that we are superior to men. I guess its all very healthy that there is a debate going on about how to project oneself through the media. Ultimately I feel that as an artist and a write, you have to have space to express yourself first. In that expression lies the politics of whether you want to flaunt it or be subtle about it or you don't want to talk about it. As long you are comfortable with expressing yourself, thats all that matters and the politics will come out of that.
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Mahesh Dattani talking about politics of identity in his film, in terms of stereotypes and caricatures.
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Q: Just an observation, just as gay people are made into caricatures in mainstream cinema, it was very interesting to see this heterosexual wedding background for the film and the play. Especially in the film they are really made into caricatures where you just here them...
You are absolutely right. You are seeing the wedding happening through a very very gay perspective. Even in the play it begins with - oh my god, those heterosexuals are it again. And he's looking at a heterosexual couple. Its just a reverse, if a heterosexual couple were to peep in - oh my god look at those homos there. So there was this sort of inversion
to point it out and to show the caricature. Both in the play and the film to me the most important line is when Kiran says the biggest stereotypes going around here are you and me, meaning men and women. And that is so true, if you look at stereotyping the biggest stereotypes are men and women. You expect men to behave in a certain way, if you hear a deep voice on the phone automatically it's a male, and if you hear a high pitched voice, automatically its a woman. If its Dr. Mehta, then the image that comes to your head is a man. So society makes stereotypes of men and women, first.
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Mahesh Dattani talking about the comfort level of his audience in terms of gay movement in India.
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Q: It was very nice because When I had seen the play at Sophia college, Bombay, there was a little bit of discomfort in the audience but when I saw the film it was much lesser - to see two men kissing on screen - so obviously there has been a movement in the last four or five years.
You are absolutely right. A lot has been happened in these 4-5 years, The comfort level in viewing the film and it has more to do with the fact that it came 4-5 years later. I'm sure it has a lot to do with that.
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Mahesh Dattani talking about his film and the censorship process.
Q And what about the censor board? Did you have any problems?
Actually it was very interesting, 1 gave the film to the censors and didn't tell them what the subject is. I just wanted them to see. I was prepared that if there is any issue I was going to pursue it. I had made the film, a lot of money had gone into it, a lot of time and effort and everyone's creative input in it. Everyone made the film because they believed in it and I didn't have much money to offer people. So I was willing to fight. It was very interesting that when the censor board called me in they knew my background that I had won the Sahitya Academy Award, that I had some standing as a playwright. So they were
very diplomatic and polite and said - is there any way you can remove the swimming pool scene. And I said no, I think it is absolutely vital to the story. They had another viewing, they did call the Vice Chancellor of Bangalore University Mr. Thimrniah and he saw it, he Was sort of very effusive, and said that it was done so well, so aesthetically treated. And there were some women on the panel who said that there is nothing vulgar about it, nothing derogatory about women. So they were fine with it. I was very lucky that I got off without a single cut. And they said we'll give you a A certificate, which is fine I wasn't looking for
U certificate but it went through without a single cut through the Karnataka censor board and I think that speaks very highly of the board.
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Mahesh Dattani talking about Karnataka and its treatment of writers and artists.
Q: Do you think Karnataka Censor board is also very sensitive about their writers and artists?
I think so and I think it's a very healthy sign. Even what Karnad is going through with the backlash from BJP, the stance which the CM has taken is that he is an intellectual, a very respected figure and you can't go around saying that he's anti-national. If there's anybody who is anti-national in the country, it's the BJP. There is no doubt about that. I think
Karnataka is a lot more sensitive and respectful to its writers and artists. I do believe that.
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I think there should be a greater interaction between lesbi-gay community and
practitioners of art, literature and cinema. The two are obviously not mutually exclusive, you would have overlaps. But even if you have writers, artists who are heterosexual there is by the nature of their work a higher level of understanding oneself and hence others. And I think both would benefit from a greater level of communication and interaction between these communities for want of a better word. Nothing is exclusive to one another, really.
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Mahesh dattani talking about interaction between lesbi-gay communities and practitioners of art.
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Mahesh Dattani talking about sexual minorities and raising levels of empathy and acceptance.
Q: Thats what I see as different in Bangalore compared to other cities, even within the activist world here, there are a lot more heterosexual people who are involved in these issues which is actually responsible for a positive shift and even in the newspapers.
I think so too. I know several journalists who are very gay sensitive. And understand a great deal more and it is not an intellectual understanding, there is a great deal of empathy. And I think that is again very healthy about Bangalore that if you go to a seminar on gay identity, you can't assume that everyone there is lesbi-gay. There is a representation of everyone including heterosexuals.
The good thing about Bangalore is that if there is a seminar on gay identity, everyone there participating or in audience is necessarily of the lesbi gay community or at the sexual margin. There is a healthy mix of heterosexuals and ultimately your sexuality doesn't matter. it's the issue on hand. Its for the benefit for everyone for all of us that everyone feels free or comfortable. The bottom line is that at any point any of us can feel marginaliscd or feel that they are a part of a majority. We can feel marginalised because of our gender, sexuality, age, religion, socio-economic status and at the same time we can find majorities we can identify with. A level of sensitivity is reached when you chose to look at your minority identity. To Say that I'm not privileged, I'm a woman, a gay or whatever. That this
means that I should reach out to other minorities or to people of the same minority group I think raising empathy levels is what will create a freer and safer society for all of us to live in.
My name is Mahesh Dattani. I am a playwright, stage director, film director and screenwriter.
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