Mumbai Attacks: Bombay First Conference @ The Trident - Tape 2
Duration: 00:57:53; Aspect Ratio: 1.778:1; Hue: 18.347; Saturation: 0.121; Lightness: 0.298; Volume: 0.128; Cuts per Minute: 3.696; Words per Minute: 80.693
Summary: Panel of Experts from U.K. and U.S.A. for the Conference on
LESSONS FROM 9/11 AND 7/7 FOR A SAFER MUMBAI
16th January, 2009
Two months after the terrible attacks on our city, a gathering of businessmen, security experts, and politicos meet at the same hotel where gunmen had created havoc.
In the quickly renovated chambers of the Regal Room in The Trident, a 6 hour session takes place where much is discussed - terrorism, surveillance, National ID Cards, higher spending on security and tighter centralization of information gathering networks. The Panel of Experts included the deputy mayor of London, a member of the US 9/11 Commission, a US Dept. of Homeland Security advisor, the head of Security for Deutsche Bank Asia Pacific, a former member of NATO Security, and several counter-terrorism experts. From India, it brought together politicians, a former NSG commando, faces from corporate India, and from the media - Gerson DaCunha and Burkha Dutt. The audience included prominent Indian businessmen, heads of security companies, a member of the Shin Bet, and people from 'concerned civil society'.
Such meetings are usually held in five-star hotels behind close doors with members of the public not having a chance to interact with or interrogate arguments made. We see putting this footage in pad.ma as a way to open up arguments and trajectories, moving away from a totalizing discourse around 'terrorism'... annotations are welcome because slowing down the pace and examining this phenomenon in detail and critically might be our only answer to the media juggernaut.
Mumbai
Trident Hotel, Nariman Point
Richard Barnes: We don't list the tens of thousands that individuals or voluntary services that turned up .. or the hotel who emptied rooms so investigators could stay there - we mention it, but don't really go into detail. What we do go into detail is communications process used by emergency services - not only within the services but out to general public as well - we looked at emergency plans, how everyone prepared themselves for a catastrophic event - while it was a terror attack that triggered this investigation - the responses are more or less the same for any catastrophic event, be it terror, fire or floods. Emergency services all had radio to talk, but couldn't talk to each other and when they went underground, their radios would not work. When police staff went down to Russel Square, in the dark, and got into the tube, to get information back they had to turn around and walk 15 minutes - there was a minimum 40 min. gap between seeking information and getting it to the authorities.
Richard Barnes: Not an acceptable situation in the 21st century when technology exists and should be applied. This week, in Jan 2009 it was announced that the police can now communicate underground in the deep channels. I wait for it to be tested truly. We were almost using 1918 runners going back and forth with information. It was quite appalling.
Richard Barnes: Lesson learnt was that the emergency services need to be able to communicate with each other quickly and clearly. What is also needed are emergency plans that are integrated - we identify police, fire, etc. all have an emergency plan - but each was developed by individual services. They have not spoken with each other to see if they integrate. If you have a plan you must test it, test it, test it, re-write it and revisit it and ensure it is up-to-date, ensure it is a living document.
Richard Barnes: I was in one of the 32 local authorities we have, and I asked one to show me the emergency plan - it had a list of contacts - I called 3 of them, to see if it was still relevant - one had retired, one had switched jobs, etc. - the emergency plan, honestly was not up-to-date and it was not fit for purpose.
Richard Barnes: This applies to business as well. Your people who you employ must know what your emergency plan is. People must know where they need to go.. you have the obligation to test your plan.
When was the list time you pressed the fire alarm to test how fast people could leave. The principles for private business and organs of state remain exactly the same.
Richard Barnes: We also identified that the ambulance service was incredibly highly well-trained, but all their supplies came from one place in the UK - that has changed - now we have depots of medical supplies at the transport interchanges around the capital. They are tested on a regular basis.
Richard Barnes: The lessons we learned are totally practical - all the evidence has been reported and recorded and is available in public. The biggest lesson, which will take months if not years to put into practice is need to ensure people of London know what to expect and do and that we communicate with them the very basics of realities. We did not have a dirty bomb explode in London - had it been a dirty bomb, we would have needed to ensure everyone who had been near the location was held in a reception area until they had been decontaminated. On 7/7. those who were injured - were registered - we know who they are and where they went to. But over 4,000 people from the tubes wandered off into London - back home, etc... they could have taken any form of contamination with them and the impact could have been extraordinary.
Richard Barnes: We learned that once we rendezvous for rescue services - we never identified a site for people to be rescued. One man came off tube with clothes torn, bleeding - he asked the police officer what to do and police said go home and watch TV ... this encapsulates the total knowledge of that police officer.
Richard Barnes: At some stage, somewhere in the world, a dirty contaminant bomb will go off and the affected public will have to be kept in a particular areas for decontamination. When does an assembly point become a .... ? Who enforces the fact that people have to stay there for decontamination? Who informs the pregnant woman who wants to get to hospital that she has to stay there until it is safe for her to move? Do we leave it to army or police to decide? Do we engender debate? I believe one of the greatest lessons is we are all in this together - we can only do that if governments share the knowledge that we all deserve, if people are taken into confidence and well informed. Thank you.
...........
Is my pleasure now to introduce Mr. Brett Lovegrove, the retired head of counter-terrorism dept of London police. Was involved post 7/7, also involved with London First and Banking Networks. Brett has developed a training program and communication platform, Project Griffin for London business community .. call upon Brett Lovegrove to share his thoughts ...
Brett Lovegrove: This is the bit I don't like.. technology ... I do apologize ...
..... (fiddling with computer .... )
Michael: In fairness, I've worked with a lot of police in my life and he actually operates this better than most of them.
Brett Lovegrove: Ladies and gentlemen, thank you so much for inviting me - what I'm going to do is a fast gallop through the presentation - then you will have an opportunity during panel discussion to ask me more. The objective of the presentation is to give a historical context, post 9/11, London experience and future issues. London is different from Mumbai but bigger issues are the same.
Brett Lovegrove: It is important to define post 9-11 context - because that was time in UK for lots of counter-terror initiatives. We did lots of work before, but 9/11 brought our formal partnerships with business community to the fore. We realized we could not do this one our own - we had finite resources - we understood what the business community could contribute - and we began to value values assets, sponsorship money business community could provide. The civil contingency act was also a tremendous help. It formalized way in which pvt. sector, pub sector, govt. and non-government agencies have worked together. Project Griffin / Argus are two projects that demonstrate this.
Brett Lovegrove: Project Griffin is a worldwide initiative that I led from London - it is pvt. sector and pub. sector coming together to identify hostile reconnaissance - it is the security professionals of the world that will see hostile reconnaissance first, it probably isn't going to be the police officers, but will be the people on the streets, people guarding your assets in componaies you're involved in. They are going to be the very first to identify this. We have to tell them how to identify hostile reconnaissance. Project Griffin has been rolled out across 26 countries in UK, Australia, South Africa, east coast US, soon to be Singapore and I hope Mumbai.
Brett Lovegrove: Project Griffin is about getting security industry professionals in a scenario like this, and giving them an awareness of what hostile reconnaissance looks like, what explosives can do, the strength of partnership between police and pvt. sector. Once they leave from this awareness training, they come back with a much better understanding. in Bombay, I see many private security guards, police, etc..To bring them all together as a team you build resilience.
Brett Lovegrove: Project Argus is about getting your work colleagues together - you will be told what actions you should take before and during an incident, and how to get the company back to normality. That is all about individual responsibilities of workers, managers, CEOs and COOs. Its about your responsibility to help pub. sector in fighting terror and get back to normality. Both initiatives are highly successful in the UK and internationally. I would like to invite the team from London. It actually doesn't cost any money.
Brett Lovegrove: JTAC, (joint terrorism assessment centre) was set up after 9/11 and is about bringing all elements of intelligence services together. Not only the police,military or secret services, but also businesses, utility companies and wider issues around UK like chambers of commerce. All those entities provide intelligence, instead of keeping that intelligence for themselves like before, now with JTAC, an intelligence system gathers information from all over the world, including Mumbai, analyzes it, and prioritizes action. It plays a very important role in centralizing intelligence. The national counter-terrorism security office trains counter-terror officer security advisors across the UK.
Brett Lovegrove: As businesses in the UK you could ring them and ask them to come and deliver presentations about resilience, solutions, partnerships, the best practices around the world. Setting up a network of counter-terrorism security advisors becomes very important. We have increased our global interaction, more so after 9/11. The policing service in the UK has a fantastic partnership with Mumbai and vice-versa. We give anything we have to you on a daily basis, as you do to us. You are not alone, you are part of an international network. You are a big player in a global scenario.
Brett Lovegrove: After 9/11, we have nationally based regional resilience forums - formed by the civil contingencies act,to ensure that authorities work together, for both man-made and natural disasters. I am suggesting a holistic, all-hazards program, to be set up in Mumbai, so you are resilient against natural and man-made disasters. It is very important to have a very pro-active govt. that leads on solutions right up to the ground floor.
Brett Lovegrove: UK is divided up into regions - London is a region, North-west region and so on - even in a small island like UK, Manchester has different needs from London, for example. We see diversity as an important part of the solution, because we need to do different things. India, with your cosmopolitan aspects, different languages and regions, recognizing this is very important.
Brett Lovegrove: The govt. office for London, emergency services utilities, local authorities, business representatives, petro-chem. industries are all around the table. They sit together all the time, not only when a disaster happens, preparing all year round, and there is tremendous enthusiasm.
Brett Lovegrove: This is what it looks like - it is led by the Home Secretary at the top, further down the National resilience committee with chairs of all different regions, the London region of resilience forum, which is a region in its own right and also covers all the issues you see in those boxes.
(diagram.. )
Brett Lovegrove: if you take any two boxes, at random, you will see a very strong connection between the 2 - in isolation they delvier strategies all year 'round, but they are all inter-related to make sure that no one aspect of London's delivery is unique to the next one. So its very important that communication is everything.
Brett Lovegrove: Lessons identified post 7/7 - Radio communications, as Richard said, could have been much better - and since Richard's report, there have been strides to make sure we fix that problem. Its one thing identifying lessons, and another learning them. We now have underground radio communication at 125 deepest parts of the tube network. Train drivers didn't have adequate communications. I'm assured that that is now being fixed.
Brett Lovegrove: The systems for communicating to everybody is equally important - to the uninjured, to the walking wounded, to people trapped in trains, they are all victims. We at the law enforcement side understand that. That became very evident in the inquiry Richard led. It becomes important for atleast one of the emergency services to declare emergency to release more resources and money from central government. We needed to be better and more co-ordinated on the declaration of a major incident. We need to notify hospitals of the event. It was so easy to get caught up in the carnage of the scenes that we forgot other things, like to let people know that this had happened and this had an impact on their resources.
Brett Lovegrove: One of the most important parts we got from Richard's committee, is setting up reception centres so we can give advice as a big team to those people who need to know if they are stranded, if their houses are lost, etc. And collecting personal details - people were walking away from the scene totally unsupervised and they were both injured and potential witnesses for an inquiry or judicial system - its important that information is captured in some way - we are working on this. We need that kind of evidence if we want to put away people responsible through the judicial system.
Brett Lovegrove: We understood very importantly - we had a media meeting yesterday - the media are an incredibly valuable partnership when such an incident happens, as well as before an incident. They help people get back to normal with communicative messages after an event. You have to embrace the media - not just embrace, but squeeze them very tightly, because in an incident like this, they are your biggest friends. So please, whatever you do, the media is extremely important.
Brett Lovegrove: Casualty bureaus are very important in trying to find out where people are, which hospital, because, theres a whole army of relatives & friends who want to know where their loved ones are and whether they are dead or alive, and if you don't plan on that, you will spend a lot of resources on that, which is undesirable. Good casualty management system is needed.
Brett Lovegrove: Communication updates - You will get a lot of media giving updates very fast on television, but it is important to be in partnership with the media to give communicative messages, not only on the day, but beyond the incident as well. It is important to keep those messages going, for months even - people are still traumatized for months and need that kind of information that the media can help deliver.
Brett Lovegrove: On my first day in Mumbai, I was glad to see a large poster which gives information about stress - contacts where people can actually go for help - we don't have those in London - so its a lesson I have learned from Mumbai and I thank you for that.
We need to understand each others' business - pub sector, or pvt. sector or security services, utilities. Because on the day, u need to know each others' capabilities, you need to rely on each other. Unless you know the business of each other, you won't know where the help is, you wont know who u can rely on, what your strengths and weaknesses are.
Brett Lovegrove: Public and private sector innovation is very important. It actually follows the first bullet point about understanding each others' business. You all have fantastic practices in your businesses - lets share that dialogue at all levels. Sharing information - many people are nervous about this - fine, some information people don't need to know, but sharing information helps with understanding (of that first bullet point). If you keep information in silos, you won't become a stronger team, which you will need on the day. As I mentioned, that all increases resilience.
Brett Lovegrove: This diagram is a result of a national risk assessment which we have done in the UK, which has plotted out our biggest risks. You will be interested to know that one of our biggest risks is not terrorism at all in the UK, it is pandemic flu, which will kill far more people than any terrorist will. The reason that I am putting that up, u can see attacks on crowded places there, terrorism, electronic attacks, etc but there are natural disasters in there. I would advise you to embark on a very important review of 26/11 and then take action to prepare yourselves for all eventualities, because a lot of these things on this schematic are coming at you. Unless we are globally prepared, as a team together this will affect us in London as much as it will affect you in Mumbai.
Brett Lovegrove: thank you for listening... (applause)
Let me now introduce Emily Walker, former 9/11 commission staff and advisor to the English dept of homeland security. She has been actively involved in international conferences and is a noted expert on emergency preparedness. She also wrote and published a document on national standards for emergency preparedness for pvt. sector, which received a national award from AMI. she is also a corporate philanthropist. She has worked also with pvt. sector with Citigroup and Barclays banks.
Emily Walker: Its a little dark up here. Its an honour to be here with the distinguished guests on the panel and with everyone here. On sept 10th, 2001, I was a regular American banker, taking the train to and from WTC everyday. I worked in building 7 at the WTC. On 9/11, my life completely changed. It was a transforming moment for me. I came out of the subway in the WTC area in NYC between the 1st and 2nd plane. It was a beautiful day. I saw things falling out from the sky. In NYC we have a baseball team, the Yankees. When they win the national championship they have a parade in the same area. Things were falling from the sky, no one could communicate or had any idea what was going on. I was late and thought I better get going to my meeting.
Emily Walker: As i walked on the street, I was in front of the NY Stock Exchange when the 2nd plane hit. I have been fortunate enough to have survived 2 IRA terrorist attacks when i was living in London and my building was blown up twice. I recognized the noise. We all ran. I managed to get out of the immediate region of the WTC before the buildings collapsed. But my building collapsed and with it a lot of people and things. It was one of those days in life that becomes something that is a transforming moment.
Emily Walker: .. fast forward, since 2001, i went back to banking, we had to recover, Our business moved from NYC to Connecticut. ...fast forward a few years later and I had the honour of serving the US govt. on the 9/11 commission. The families of 9/11 victims drove the formation of the commission. They were the reason the US govt did the investigation. The point is we took action in the US, we looked at the history and events, came up with recommendations on the commission and in 2009 we are still working on implementing those recommendations.
Emily Walker: But stand here today not because I am a govt. official, but because I fundamentally believe we are all in this together. And that emergency preparedness and being able to respond to situations, whether flood or terrorist attack, or a hurricane, is critical. I come because Mumbai is connected to the rest of the world and in this war of terror and Enough is Enough. The only one who can really fix what we are facing in terms of citizenship and being prepared, is ourselves.
Emily Walker: For people of London, Mumbai, NYC - we personally can't stop whats happening in the world, but we can definitely be prepared. We can do the things required for our govt., businesses to be prepared for emergencies. How you do this in Mumbai is your decision. It is a difficult process. It took us a long time in the US to make progress, but what isn't an option is doing nothing. I'm here to work with you and we'll talk later about the specifics, to help people and govt. of India to be able to come forward to prevent future incidents like tragically happened where we sit today. I will leave with this, but I just want you to know that preparedness, taking action, making decisions and moving forward is absolutely critical.
(applause)
May I now invite the hon. minister to address us...
...................
All the dignitaries on the dias and friends, I am here to understand how people around the globe tackle the situation. Of course, Mr. Brett's presentation has given us a new insight. I think after 26/11, India has first time really started thinking to bring the systems together and create a foolproof system. We did have some experience in the past with parliament incidents, Akshardham, other incidents confined to a particular area. But this time what we faced in Mumbai, was at a time at 3-4 places.
Indiscriminate firing was the basic principle of the terror attack, with the cover of grenades being thrown and creating a secure area for the terrorist. I must mention here that the city police reacted in the shortest possible time - in 10,12 minutes - the courage which city police has shown is commendable. I don't think policemen with or without weapon has thought what is being carried by the terrorist. This is the first incident in Maharashtra or the city where we have come across an experience where all our barriers have failed to stop people coming in.
There is lots of discussion at national and state level. I have come here to listen to all the speakers, I thought I'll learn something more. Many changes happened after 26/11. The State has also started thinking what can be the best system and for which we have started searching how we can create the best solution. It is not a job of few days but what we have done is immediate reaction we have created something that we think can give immediate reply or defense to any type of terror attack. But I think this city needs a permanent solution which can match with the solutions created in London or NYC.
I'm very happy Richard Barnes and Lovegrove have shared their experience. I think after the terror attacks, there have been many discussions, but UK & US have acted upon and created a perfect system and we people in Mumbai also feel we should follow the same steps. I personally don't want to give a big lecture here promising that we will do this, this this - the very reason for me to come here is to find out what is their experience and what they share.
The only thing I can say is after this terror attack Indian people strongly feel that we around the globe should come together and fight terrorism. We have to show we are together, strongly together. I am of the opinion the World has tried enough to improve systems in Pakistan, World has fairly given a chance to Pakistan to improve its economic conditions. Pakistan has become a nuclear nation - there are various issues related to the attacks originating from the soil of Pakistan.
If the Pakistani govt. cannot control issues arising from its soil, the World has to think very carefully about that - India cannot keep seeing things originating in Pakistan and doing nothing - we have been patient too long. Because of our one police officer, we could find one terrorist alive, and we have given the evidence that this originated from Pakistan soil. The question is how do we deal with this. I am not against Pakistan, but we have to tell Pakistan govt. that they have to act, but my fear is things are not in their control.
If things are not in their control, we will have to face these things often, in which case, we will have to act in 2 ways - one will be self-defense, but other will have to go beyond that. Vast majority of people here think why are we not doing anything - something cultivated in that small nation's soil has created a lot of nuisance. India is always a peace-loving nation - after 26/11, the city was very calm, people started working a day later. In 93, after bomb blasts, next day people started working - this city never stops.
This city has seen a lot of calamities - even natural calamities - but this city is so united, strong, it can fight any terror attack or natural calamity. I am thankful to Bombay First for taking this initiative and bringing us together. I had gone to London First finance office - we were talking about making Mumbai an international financial hub. Bombay First is a body that has taken a lot of initiative in development of Mumbai - this will also help govt. and city immensely.
Thanks to all for coming and sharing experience. Would love to find out if Mumbai and Maharashtra police can be in touch with UK police and develop a better plan. I suggested we meet at the end of the day with police officers. I hope police officers can share what they have experienced and learnt - Mumbai and Maharashtra need to work together toward a perfect plan so no one can penetrate this city and create the horror they did on 26/11
Thank you.. thank you Mr. Nardendar Nair for inviting me to share my views here.
Thank you very much.. for those kind words for Bombay First ..
May I request Alan Rosling ... to make concluding remarks ....
Alan Rosling: Ladies and gentlemen, good afternoon - you'll be pleased to know I'm not going to make a long speech - also because i'm not an anti-terror expert. I represent London business community to express our support for this city and for this initiative to learn the lessons from other places and apply it to Mumbai.
Alan Rosling: Standing before you I wanted to make a couple of remarks - let me start off as somebody who has lived in the city for a decade and has experienced multiple attacks. This city has experienced more terrorism than its fair share. I am also a citizen of London and it has received its share of terrorism, of course, 7/7, but also IRA for a hundred years. I worked at Downing Street when it was bombed. From this experience and as a historian, let me state one thing - Terrorism can be defeated.
Alan Rosling: I would suggest that there are 3 ways for this - 1> is what we've heard of from the experts - A govt. response, a security response. But two others comments I wanted to make on how terrorism can be defeated, which is more with us as citizens:
- firstly, the response has got to be societal. We must celebrate those who lost their lives - employees, guests at this hotel, families, victims at leopold, etc. but beyond we need to make sure that terrorism doesn't work by denying them the right to terrorize us. We must get on with our lives without giving in. In a democracy, in a free society, we as citizens are going to carry out our daily business, despite what terrorists wish.
Alan: Lastly, terrorism anywhere can be defeated ultimately by a political process. It is very easy for us to be angry with the criminals who have done this, to our city and to our colleagues and friends, but there are political causes and solutions, combined with a societal response, combined with ofcourse the security response. If you focus only on the security response, I don't believe you will succeed as well if you don't bring in societal and political response.
Alan: As a citizen of Mumbai and as chairman of the British business group I wish this conference and its members well. We will do everythnig we can to support you. We will continue living and doing business in city of Mumbai, thank you...
running late - break for 10 minutes ...
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