Interview with Jockin Arputham (Part 3)
Cinematographer: Shaina Anand
Duration: 01:36:13; Aspect Ratio: 1.778:1; Hue: 49.697; Saturation: 0.036; Lightness: 0.376; Volume: 0.286; Cuts per Minute: 0.042; Words per Minute: 106.010
Summary: In this last interview of the three part interviews, Jockin details out the journey from taking on the work of rehabilitating slum dwellers along the railway lines and partnering with World Bank for undertaking relocation and rehabilitation of MUTP affected families. He defends his role of also running a construction company along side the slum dwellers federation and explains the how's and why's of surveys and policy shifts amongst other things.
Simpreet Singh: Last time you told us about slums along railway lines, that you got the responsibility of survey, and that with government officers Gautam Chatterjee and others you were given a sort of authority to stop the demolition if something wrong was happening. And also about how Mahila Milan was set up. So two things come out. one is survey, and another being money collection from women. So, when you went ahead with these things, how did you connect with MUTP (Mumbai Urban Transport Project) and World Bank.
Jockin Arputham: This is a very important milestone. Like we have some people from Wolrd Bank with us... one of the chief of the World Bank was in Bombay. He came to us very interestingly, roamed with us on railway tracks. From here we went to Goregaon, then to Bandra, here and there. And he said 'oh, such a vast thing, why can't somebody do it? Why can't World Bank do something about it?'
Then we took him to the tracks. That is the time Mr. D.T. Joseph was the Urban Development Secretary Government of Maharashtra, he was with us. He explained that SPARC has all documents - who is the family, when they came, from where they came, where they work, what is their age, where their children study - such acute details. World Bank can't even collect this.
Jockin Arputham: After watching this they asked me who collected the data? I said... we sat on the railway tracks - I might have that photograph - We were seated on railway tracks. Because senior officials were there, train was stopped. Discussing one of the thick slum in Jogeshwari. I said my kids - boys and girls had collected it. In those days there was Vandana, Prema, etc with us... 50-60 youngsters were doing this work.
After seeing all this he asked who did all this? I am saying again this is collected by us by the slums dwellers. He was shocked at how such acute details were collected! I felt I should collect this data, and so I did. Back then I always felt everything should have logical conclusion.
Jockin Arputham: What is a logic conclusion? By hook or crook by whatever way you need you will come to a natural conclusion that the people can't live on the track, people can't live in the railway line, they have to be accommodated. Then we showed him in maps and photographs how many hutments fit in 30 ft, 50 ft, their size, etc. Their co-operative society had been established. Back then almost 400 housing societies were formed. Everybody knew this is our place. Back then we had only one option to present this to the government and follow it through. So then he said 'After all this....?' But no... there was one Indian researcher Mr. Reddy who was teaching in Tata Institute, who said 'what is this rubbish data collection, they are sum dwellers. We need degree holders to do data collection. We cannot accept this data.'
Jockin Arputham: I said that same thing - see this is horrible thing about World Bank and other people. Whatever qualitative data, comprehensive data, this also you want graduates to do! How is data affected if non-graduates collect it? So he accepted. That is the time this professor from World Bank... he said 'no I will go to the World Bank and I'll arrange it that with this data...' that is the time they were trying to arrange who could be the agency to do this. He said very clearly no agency, SPARC is the agency, we should give the contract to them and we should get the thing done. You have done completely, they are in a position to do everything.
Jockin Arputham: He went to world bank, then after 3 months I got a call. I went to Washington then explained to them, to team and to World Bank, president etc all of them. This was accepted and approved. And then we came. Even today I have... she is sitting here, Meena Ramani, and she is a woman who got affected. That time as an experiment there is a slum on western line Borivali to Dahisar - it is a leprosy colony - how do you remove them without any government notice in writing, only orally? That time the Rajdhani Express used to get disturbed everyday. I said give me an order right away, I will get it done within 3 days. So Mr Ravindran was the chair person of Western Railway and he told - general manager - he said 'Jockin ji my order is right now, you just remove them, we will support you.'
Jockin Arputham: What we have to do is move the slums which is near the railway track to the back. All expenditure you have to undertake. I said I will take the expenses, I will do myself. I have cleared almost 120 slums within one week I had shifted them back and shown them cleared tracks. Within 8 to 9 days they came back, there was no stopping at Rajdhani (Express). That is what clicked, today it is called MUTP 2. It was sanctioned, there was a written agreement with SPARC and rehabilitation started.
Simpreet Singh: Why did people agree to you?
Jockin Arputham: Why do people agreed - because I could talk to people. Do you want to live front or back side, or you people want to live on the tracks or want to go die somewhere else? People agreed because they were able to see - We are now within 5 ft of each other, I want to now sit 15 ft back. He felt this is genuine. Why should I sit here only? The huts which were in front were moved back. So they went away. And after all finance is mine, there was no investment from them. Material from their own huts along with some extra material like bamboo, tin, etc was bought and hutments were moved to the back. Within one week what I call 'Ravan Sena', on hearing 'Ravan Sena' many people came together and demolished the slums in one day.
Jockin Arputham: The Rajdhani Express on the Western Railway, even now blows its horn continuously while passing Dahisar to Borivali to signal its arrival. Rajdhani Express used to stop there, large number of people used to jump down there. This stopped. Ravindran saw this and said loudly, clearly 'I've never seen anything like this before. You removed people and no one protested? You did the job for me and moved all to the back of railway land.' They are still there today. That is where I can go any track anywhere up to Bhayandar, tell the people, 'Jockin sir has come', everyone will stand.
if the huts is not empty 10 fit then make them empty. What I am like to say that someone should there for people to give message and their safety.
Jockin Arputham: 'Hey, come here. How far are you from the tracks?' - 10 ft. 'Is 10 ft empty? If not empty it.' On the spot they would empty it for me. I feel that people know, they just need someone to put the message across to them as well as look after their safety.
Shaina Anand: So one is the faith and trust they have in you. But what was your strategy in trying to get the MUTP contract, where you are telling Ravindran that without charge you'd clear that track?
Jockin Arputham: See, I didn't have any idea about the contract. My intentions were focussed on how to get homes for those living on railway tracks, because its a Central Government issue, their homes had to be moved, cannot stop demolition, no appeal to anybody... you are lost. In this situation, how to protect peoples' interest? Because of my work, today 20,000 people got homes. No one spent a rupee. Each family was reimbursed 1000 rupees for travel expenses, cash compensation. Where the policy says no...
[[Areee!! Where the Meena went tell her to sit here.]]
Jockin Arputham: After this I went to Govandi. This is not the MUTP. MUTP-2 was mostly Central Railway, Western Railway was not connected to MUTP but it got connected because of what I made a demonstration... They demolished their own slum.
Simpreet Singh: How were you introduced to the road component (of this project)?
Jockin Arputham: After doing this the government got the sort of agency who can actually show results. See NGO culture was like ordering everyone. That is the time I had win-win for everybody. Slums won, railways won, government also won, no one is a loser.
Simpreet Singh: Some years before this, if we look at your struggle around Janata nagar or others, you were already confronting then... how...?
Jockin Arputham: It clicked in my mind, my whole life went in confrontations. If I'd followed the same strategy in Mankhurd it would've been win-win. That happened in 1976 or 1984, 1985. This is how after I lost - for me, I lost Janata Colony. It is not winning for me I lost the biggest struggle.
Simpreet SIngh: Did people get homes?
Jockin Arputham: People got homes - but they were in 300 sq ft and then they got 150. it's not a win at all. Its shame on my fault. I was aiming to get 300. History suggests begin with a small space, then bigger and bigger. Here we failed because it went from big space to small and then even smaller. So that is a fail.
Simpreet SIngh: Did people get homes?
Jockin Arputham: People got home people were in 300 sq ft they were got 150 it's not a (?) at all (?) my fault I was aim to get 300. History is saying small place to big than bigger we failed because of earlier big place to small than more small so that is a failed. If I could not be arrested and could got a more chance I would achieved all that but my unity was become weak because of government had given greed them for home. My powerful strategy was in 1976 I could come at single individual also could not to step out. After I was arrested I was under police custody for 24 polices around me.
Jockin Arputham: If I had not been arrested, I could've struggled harder, I could've achieved all that. But my unity was weakened because some got homes through the government, some didn't. My powerful strategy in 1976, I could command single individual also not to step out. But after, I was arrested, I was under police custody, 24 police around me.
Simpreet Singh: Railway is another thing. But in the case of roads, we see that even with road extensions the traffic problem persists, which was the objective of road extension.
Jockin Arputham: That's just how it is. But immediately loss of the people who is not lost. All those affected by roads were to get homes, but even there half didn't get their homes. Flase records were made, false space they were shifted to. It is not the way we wanted. I wanted something very transparent, very non-violent...
Shaina Anand: You were saying Central Railway's MUTP you managed to get it linked to western... So how was that, and what did you achieve?
Jockin Arputham: What I achieved after looking at this - no, before this - I have done a demonstration in... where she is, there's a (?) settlement, Kanjurmarg. When I went to the all regular meetings, CM meeting, this meeting, that meeting all the meeting I was attending on behalf of NGO. In all the meetings government would say no land, no land,... Finally I said in one of the meetings, there is a 7 acre land in Kanjurmarg. Ajit Varty was Secretary for land at that time.
Jockin Arputham: He said they have land but there is a one land in Kanjurmarg if you are interested this slum dwellers... Vikhroli? Before you?
Meena: MIne is Ghatkopar.
Jockin Arputham: Ghatkopar, pathak
Meena: Gauri Shankarwadi, Hariyali Village than Vikhroli
Jockin Arputham: Same place in Vikhroli (?) I spoke to them give me place I will make transit camp and shift my people there. You cannot do this how will you go? People are not getting ready even if we spend a crore of money then how will you convey them? I said I will let them know the government has provided land all which is documented today is all the document is there. There was a development land in Kanjurmarg that land they gave me and said shift your people there. I said very good they gave me letter in writing. I called the all women this woman also was there gathered them did meeting said to everyone will demolished our slums area and built here transit camp there was snakes, khaadi very dangerous..
Meena: Constructed road there was very bad road.
Jockin Arputham: We constructed road by our-self, connected the road after that all slum dwellers filled the mud whole day women and in night men and built transit camp. We took loan 18 thousand per house from HUDCO (Housing and Urban Development Corporation)
Simpreet Singh: Organisation through?
Jockin Arputham: Through a SPARK this is all under SPARK peoples power than they gave us loan before loan we had a lakhs of rupees in saving we levelled the land with saving money and we create transit camp colony map after that made chawls. Said to people go to our home and demolish the hut by your-own. I proved them 1000 huts demolished.
Meena: We demolished our home by our-self because we got the benefit of selling broken houses materials. Before railways was doing demolished so we couldn't get anything from that.
Jockin Arputham: Than we made pakka house chawls we decided by our won how much size should be 10x15 what nature should be? temporary because if it is temporary so we can put pressure on government. After this the Mr Joseph spoke to (?), Ravindran said them look at here your is 100 to 200 huts here is 3, 4 areas emptied. After spoke to them then they called the meeting and converted MUTP into one (Mumbai Urban Transport Project)
Jockin Arputham: This was implemented for all over Mumbai that day I brought one rule because of DM (?) was there. Same (?) road all that demolition (?) all of you know we can refer to that in that slum demolition. But the slum will become eligible on which day NGO has put the number for alternative.
Simpreet Singh: (?)
Jockin Arputham: It is apply even today since phone call coming to me here is a 200 slum empty it how? putting your number still I have put number the slums get eligible. When 2006 is 2000 existing for the government that is cutoff date for SPARK is this but should be a government project...
Shaina Anand: This date of survey?
Jockin Arputham: Date of survey cutoff date 2001
Simpreet : Earlier was 1995
Jockin Arputham: Earlier was 1995 after that 2000 but by doing with problematic, by working with (?) committee because Sheela Patel one of the member of the committee than I know all of them in the committee. I know (?) very personally so I went to (?) say sir please give us some weapons so he said what weapons? When non of them has been counted. For counting this should be happen when NGO appointed NGO is the number to a structure that become the cutoff date that hut should have a right for having an alternative. Even today, today what date? Whatever date is date is today.
Simpreet Singh: August 2018
Jockin Arputham: August 2018 I can put 20 huts coming in the way of the track somewhere in Borivali I can give number tell that they need to be rehabilitated they will do it. This is what policy implication which as a slum dwellers can get it done.
Simpreet Singh: What was the situation on 15 years back so that this policy in rule or they had to agreed...
Jockin Arputham: See on that the government was down they could not do anything there were in no delivery at all here is a delivery. By the time demonstrate I already shown rehabilitation of 35000 hutment dwellers, 35000 families got numbered, 35000 several (?) shifted, 35000 families were rehabilitated living in a better place there is no need for any demolition. Now even I go with that kind of a order and tell the people take us also in this under the new slums. So it is not easy for the government to go for and demolition. But at the sometime some strange people are coming tonight and telling me give me number till morning I will nit do it. Even though I am an activist but I will not go on and say no who they are when they came from when came where was they why they came here all these need to be known.
Simpreet Singh: When anyone get power so you might have faced ethical question many time when you have to decide because your decision will change their life (?) ?
Jockin Arputham: Suddenly but at the time you cannot make (?) decision you have to assert yourself why you are making such a decision. How can you justify somebody who come in the night who going to give a number and now you going to decide about 12 years back somebody sitting there who didn't got number, who didn't got a allotment, who is not got a house so you can't do that.
Simpreet Singh: But the value frame work also come in at the other place you are referring to constitution right to live means everyone has equal right?
Jockin Arputham: This is not for the equal right arbitration should not be totally avoided in this in your end therefore, you cannot say I have a power so give home to anyone so what happened to them who was already? It can justify when they can get after them but they want before them not decided them. Only because of in corner I will give 3 hut to number then who will gets benefit in that accept that 3 peoples.
Simpreet Singh: When you was doing the survey it might have many people had disputed?
Jockin Arputham: There is so many dispute we had completely observed I have decided only one-thing I agree with the government. There is a 3 floors home my number doesn't protect upper floors it only protect the land coverage its only about land not the floors all the join families. In our Tamil culture foremost father than son, than daughter-in-law, than mother-in-law if we decide for one home than have to give them 7 homes. You have a right to give one family one house to the not to house whole family.
Jockin Arputham: So when you acquire the power practically, struggling you have to agree that was the reason so strictly they have worked of following even till today.
Shaina Anand: No than you are self saying 300 ft home so should get 300 ft home but way RNR the new going and sitting in 180 sq ft not (?) development they thrown in Mankhurd now when you lived and say in Mahim or in Sion?
Jockin Arputham: Mahim was very clearly 225 sq ft, 180 sq ft last was 225 even today they are talking about giving 352 Dharavi for which I don't agree I don't work for it, I don't put a demand, I don't agree. Why you need 350 because you make money, because your Dharavi, your united, your power therefore you want to show power how many people can get 350 that mean you are depriving another 80% of the people no house. So, I am not done anything wrong for anybody the have a limited policies says everybody to 25, everybody to 25. Here I have try to make in Dharavi for somebody that is eligible for everybody I made it for the policies of the government.
Meena: When they came to survey in our area they were giving us 225 sq ft in that he did G+1 spend money 1.5 lakh rupees on that time. He told if you come in our area to put number than I will fire you and me applying kerosene. Sir said I am sorry it was my fault I will not come because he know no one can win with railways fight later they have to come back we have to face so many pain so he didn't allow the number he didn't come we made him out. We was already join that's way making understanding to him but he didn't listen some few neighbourhood had allowed them top put number at the end he got to know there was 8 people who did case they are demolishing our home we don't have to move they still not get the home they are still there. It is impossible to win with railways so we faced lot of difficulties Mr Prakash Mehta he was collected 30 rupees to everyone before one day demolition in night he did a meeting with us and said I am with you not to worry...
Simpreet Singh: BJP leader?
Meena: Yes BJP leader. Next day disturbance was started that other place is happening demolition so people had to move from here. Some leader went there they said this is a government place you have to move from here, our 30 rs also went wasted and at the end we had to moved means we can't fight with government so we faced a lot of troubled in this. Then also we have tried took one by one area in our society there were 104 peoples near by railway where I become leader...
Shaina Anand: What happened after transit camp?
Meena: We went transit camp later...
Jockin Arputham: Before we made transit camp model that is a idea is how transit camp after that is a real rehab building.
Simpreet Singh: Who did the construction?
Jockin Arputham: That is all (?) Developers. Nobody did development I am doing it wherever they didn't do it I built around 7, 10 thousands houses.
Simpreet Singh: That was through SPARK Nirman?
Jockin Arputham: Yeah. Many builders don't have money to built so I am built myself
Simpreet SIngh: When you felt to do your own construction means from the survey...
Jockin Arputham: No, I have seen during survey those who didn't get home who want to built home there was a place at Goregaon I took that place said to government give this place to them no builders here, I am the builder I will make (?) made building gave it to people, people saw...
Shaina Anand: How does it happened on the one hand Mahila Milan Bachatghat you said that this savings was always a surety and a guarantee?
Jockin Arputham: Mahila Milan money collection was a power collecting people, uniting people and it is in the hands of the women the leadership is (?) of the women. The women should decided which building they will go, how they will go, who will be there on the top it is very very difficult (?) 7 storey, 100 (?) who will live on top, and ground floor everyone is interested to live on ground side. No, we will sit and discussion how the room is young family will go in highest on the 7th floor. Who is oldest they will go on lower in between will go like this. First pregnant cesarean cases like this ladies (?) for the ground floor then after that 1st floor, according to this we decided like this base was allotment was done. Where the government policies says take out lottery I said I will not take out lottery.
Simpreet Singh: But in this many fights, disputes, allegations?
Jockin Arputham: There is impossible without allegation to huge work to rehabilitate 28 thousands families self slum dwellers vanished rehabilitation government only there was only 3 officers totally worked in MUTP was only 3 officers. Signing was Shekhar signing was that people I used to never sign and allotment co-operative society, society chairman will sign, Shekhar will sign allotment. First time in Indian history a slum dwellers had given a power to sign a official document of allotment for an house was implemented in MUTP.
Simpreet Singh: So these all allegation and all that...?
Jockin Arputham: It has to be proved there was no single case of allegation came to us.
Simpreet Singh: Even to deal with it many energy we have to put in that...?
Jockin Arputham: That is a none of the beauty as think is that some went to court, allegation, fight and all that Mahila Milan ladies will managed. All ladies was dealing with bigger leaders like MLA they saw 50 women together no men was there men went than women decided.
Simpreet Singh: Could you give some example?
Jockin Arputham: Many many example that was I am telling the process of allotment left to the woman ladies women are the one who is solving the disputes, women are the one who is leading all the rehabilitation.
Shaina Anand: So for example Lallubhai Compound 48 thousands families?
Jockin Arputham: Not 48 thousands...
Simpreet Singh: 4800
Jockin Arputham: Yeah, yeah, 4800
Shaina Anand; Sorry! Sorry! 50000 people
Jockin Arputham: Yeah.
Shaina Anand: So this was a process that (?)
Jockin Arputham: Same everywhere Oshiwara, Goregaon, Mankhurd, Andheri, Lallubhai Compound, Vashi Naka, Makhurd everything the same model.
Shaina Anand: So because Memorandum of Understanding MOU we have seen the first MOU was just to evict the people the MOU which start was empty the place. Than how did the second phase which was...?
Jockin Arputham: No, no. no the first MOU was first to clear the track the safety zone, safety zone was 30 meters from both the side of the track which we had majored it and marked it. Than we told the people these are the people eligible all those who are coming under the 30 meters they will go into this therefore, there is a read number, blue number, white number. The number was given on the house based on the people was selected, based on that the demobilisation was organised and people were given the number based on that. Everyone has a co-operative society wherever is Lallubhai all of them caught into the co-operative society. That society s and the people have to accepted there is no other new formula, there is no government. no MLA, no councillor in this whole exercise all the councillors kept out. all the MLA's were kept out, no MP interference.
Simpreet Singh: (?) good thing or bad thing?
Jockin Arputham: No, I will argue for myself it is a only good think because this are the people meant make policy not to come and meant with the people.
Simpreet Singh: In the sense in one level we are saying he is our representative...
Jockin Arputham: He is our representative to make a policy change not to come and play with us. I am making toilet so their job only the inaugurates not into look at the construction materials hence, they took votes, that's way they have leadership. If they will involves they will suggest to buy materials particular shop for commission that is where the corruptions (?)
Simpreet Singh: The question is linked to transform our-self in construction company so this decision...?
Jockin Arputham: No, no, no I am not done any transformation in my company. Where building was impossible to built there only we didn't change any policy where building was available. For example I had made 9019 (?) nobody was ready to work there simple reason they were asking behind one room 3,85000 + 50000 +20000 including all 4,50000 rs.
Simpreet Singh: Who was asking?
Jockin Arputham: Builder
Simpreet Singh: Means to you?
Jockin Arputham: To the government, government had 3,0000 money limits and after that have commission for contractors said it was impossible. I said I will do in 2999. That was cleared opened documents was put on that was okay put the tender I made their work in less amount as other was asking. I worked where was needed where is demand there not there is no demand and I will do it if there is a demand I will not do it.
Jockin Arputham: Other than that we had only one principle if anyone involve in my project I will not going to be do. I had not done.
Jockin Arputham: We had only one option
Simpreet Singh: Means company experience, working as a company, working as a NGO and also working as a movement how it was...?
Jockin Arputham: It was possible...
Simpreet Singh: This was possible that we can see. What was the experience, like you have came into company you would have to deal with TDR (Transfer of Development Rights) that become another word...
Shaina Anand: Simultaneously you are doing NGO tactics, you are doing other anarchy tactics, but you are also taking the builder contract and does it one state...
Jockin Arputham: See look at this is my construction. Nobody was ready to construct here everyone was told 5 lakh expenditure, nobody was ready to work in Dharavi. I have took 350 tenements I got the job I said TDR is more then enough. Went to bank shown them my saving, people saving, my credibility, bank loan was approval. I had done my work with TDR money through loan. Look at this is my gift free house, this is what I have achieved from TDR. People got the free house and also 20,000. I have to do everything what the builder does it not even one single compromise. Accept I had a provision how paying the fee to the authority at the last stage not in advance. Needs to give 20,000 advance money to other builders. I said I'll not give when my building will get ready then take it. They had to compromised after building got ready I had paid fees (?) given.
Jockin Arputham: See we have to ready for the hardworking. People are accept in bargaining without work hard. Enjoying the drink party that would be fine them. I don't need strong drink we have too think about how you cam deliver this with very clear transparent completely open anyone can see what is the income, what is the expenditure. I am saying very frankly this is my profit I am sitting here. I had built the 6 buildings in whole Dharavi that TDR is still there not even single room I had sold it as a commercial value.
Simpreet Singh: TDR rights are still book?
Jockin Arputham: TDR rights are still with me. I had given home to people 10 years early.
Simpreet Singh: Means how?
Jockin Arputham: I explained very simple I took my credit, my working credit, my working assert as a liability to the bank. I might (?) my skill they give the loan I finished the job took the TDR and paid them back. They had also cleared, our liability gone, extra TDR is my liability, my own...
Simpreet Singh: Or an assert?
Jockin Arputham: Is an assert now, now I can do any amount of work for people.
Simpreet Singh: People might not understood earlier for example if we talk about the Mankhurd, 4 big colonies built in Mankhurd so in that TDR has generated. So, that TDR Bandra to Andheri side are in use as much redevelopment is in western suburbs so many portion of that TDR is coming from Mankhurd. So we can see 2 things very clearly one kind of ghettoisation in Mankhurd. People from different places, particular class, particular economic background so this is how poor men colony earlier government was saying in 1950 that is how become now. In western suburb its kind of a gentrification because earlier society was 4 floors and now its becoming 20 floors of society increasing property rate. This kind of effect was not realised at that time but now we can see and its happening. So that people had to redevelopment, some government project had to do so these type of changes how you are see?
Jockin Arputham: I never participated in Mankhurd. I took 3 places where TDR was not development. One is in Kanjurmarg that is after completing MUTP 2 (Mumbai Urban Transport Project) after demonstration. I never need because I was busy on rehabilitating. So, I was not doing anything in the TDR project at all. Whatever I did it after whole rehabilitation got over all than (?) TDR project started only after completing MUTP 2 all over Mumbai. Then I took some sample in Dharavi TDR project a successful TDR development project. When I started that time they said TDR market will fall down for 2004 (?) you will be in the jail. I started till today I am asking everybody when the TDR fall down till today not TDR fall down at all. TDR is a marketing product it will always increase it will never go down land price. So I have not turn anything in rehabilitation at all.
Simpreet Singh: Its not that you have done anything wrong but some policy instrument government has made that impact is effecting to people life...?
Jockin Arputham: I understand very rightly I was not using that instrument for rehabilitation at all. That cannot be even done. Because of you are very busy in negotiating land, land right from different point of view. Till then government was saying no land when I introduce this policy how land and then first project came in Mankhurd. That time they said TDR not TDR (?) took the contract 3,854 per sq ft.
Simpreet Singh: Which ft?
Jockin Arputham; Mankhurd.
Simpreet Singh: Where in Mankhurd?
Jockin Arputham: Mankhurd I always say 138 site number 138 that is a first ever rehabilitation.
Simpreet Singh: Near station?
Jockin Arputham; Near Mankhurd station that is a first ever side, first rehabilitation took because MHADA (The Maharashtra Housing & Area Development Authority) had a ready flats available there about 1700 I made pushed the government to purchase that they bought and give it to us.
Shaina Anand; When was this?
Jockin Arputham: That is in exactly 1990 I took about 17,000 tenement that is the time they bought this. Second was Lallubhai Compound, third was Vashi Naka, Vashi Naka I totally rejected the land does't suit at all. The government have said nothing they are went around could not get any land. That time the law was with me I have to approve any land for the rehabilitation. But it also says in the policy note some action acception could be in the even we are not getting the land. So, for Vashi Naka people were not getting land they were stuck in the transit camp for more than 9 years so I have no choice I told them okay.
Simpreet Singh: What was your objection to Vashi Naka?
Jockin Arputham: That is not suitable land because its far away from track people have to come need to all the places even today that is the problem.
Simpreet Singh: Yeah, Station is not near by...
Jockin Arputham: Station is not near by (?) and people who come from all over Mumbai that was the problem.
Simpreet Singh: And what about the Lallubhai Compound?
Jockin Arputham: Lallubhai was not a problem, Lallubhai was on the track.
Simpreet Singh: Means how will you get the land and what was the process?
Jockin Arputham: Land got easily builder offered and said I am ready to offer all this. We said because the Lallubhai was not there. He is the one made out if money the whole thing. First person offered free house that is Lallubhai.
Simpreet Singh: So there was there something?
Jockin Arputham: That is the government and government allotted to builder factory in 1938. And after 1952 they didn't use it. It was land vacant in that is was known as Lallubhai Compound therefore, that fellow came and used it this is coming from development he made out of money best of all the rehabilitation.
Simpreet Singh: Because of the big site?
Jockin Arputham: There was a big site, there was many things that is why he benefited very well. The whole construction (?) didn't go more than thousand he got it 3800.
Simpreet Singh: Means they didn't construct themselves?
Jockin Arputham; He had given contract.
Simpreet SIngh: Yes
Jockin Arpitham: He hired contract? (?)
Shaina Anand: One phase given to Hiranandani?
Jockin Arputham: Yes took Hiranandani.
Shaina Anand: So I think we done a little jump. Because we were in still 1986 then we come to 1990. So in that (?) came TDR came is changes the game on the street. The takes for housing as a right and the possibility of like you said re-housing everybody in the name of development projects changed. Because the (?) maths, profitability margins they are mind (?) this logic that Lallubhai TDR can use in Bandra...?
Jockin Arputham: What is more important we have to understand whoever understood that time the concept of TDR. The first project of Mankhurd was the big lost for government, second project was something in Kurla, third project was Lallubhai. After Lallubhai only the whole eyes of all the developers all over the country woke up by then little bit nobody was able to even understand what is the TDR accept I don't know myself since, I was in thickly involved in the decision making. How was busy I still remember One day Hiranandani and other big people asked for a dinner I was wonder why they are inviting me for dinner. They said dinner is in Taj Hotel you have to come. I said why is in Taj Hotel ? I am Madarasi guy eating only Dal Rice why you are inviting me there ? No sir you have to come anyhow there are only 2,3 people are there. I can't be tough and rough with all the people said come for dinner. Then went to dinner then I got to know they have 2, 3 projects. In that 1 toilet with combine bathroom for this you can give us a permission? So we can work otherwise we won't work. See such a pity guys. Then I said later to them this can't be possible. Our people are labourers they have to go to work, woman will be in kitchen and man will be taking shower that's why, each house should be one bathroom and on toilet, second should be kitchen platform (?) after that bedroom should be there. Otherwise their practically was one open combine hall and the (?). Its there in Dharavi they made in Dharavi. When I bought a stay order Dharavi was completed. Then I got the call I got it stay order then they came to me please sir do exemption us. We'll give everyone one single bathroom, toilet should be combine in bathroom. I said them you offering me dinner in Taj Hotel to close the toilet and bathroom not possible. Which I got the (?) idea that is why today you see all over plus only in MUTP houses. If you see your passage 1.2 meter. Earlier building was only 1 meter middle passage. In this only 1.2 that I got approval. After that (?) ordered them you can start now but no compromise one bathroom, one toilet should be compulsory in MUTP.
Simpreet Singh: In the recent report they were talking about Lallubhai distance between 2 buildings that is less because of...?
Jockin Arputham: That is happened because (?) half of MMRDA used this discretionary power allowed all these things to happened. They didn't that properly monitoring mechanism with the MUTP to look after the design and implementation of the rehab colony therefore, these all spoiled. That time I was speak up you people might be knowing that time one lawyer collective went to the court and what is their (?). They all are encroaches they need to be thrown in Arabian sea they should not be rehabilitated.
Jockin Arputham: I went to the court I went along with Sujata, this fellow what is his name? Hmmmm! Lawyer Mona's husband... Sujata... Not Colin, Colin was not that time hmmmm!! Hmm! There was a one book writer (?) Hmmm!! His name is...
Shaina Anand: Which year is this?
Jockin Arputham: This year 2000 last is collective. That time itself they went with the court. In the court they (?) for they should not do any rehabilitation there. And that is a time had to compromised and manage to get these things done.
Shaina Anand: Not all this Bombay first and...
Jockin Arputham: No no no not Bombay first these people same... Lawyer...
Simpreet Singh: Relief note case ?
Jockin Arputham: No no I think social justice something like that.
Jockin Arputham: They finally suit in which we went I am trying to collect his name of...
Simpreet Singh: (?)
Jockin Arputham: Not (?) no no no I don't know anybody in (?) will talk like that.
Simpreet Singh: There was no signature in Lallubhai design that was decided?
Jockin Arputham: No, in all the design we are very little say...
Simreet Singh: MMRDA
Jockin Arputham: Because of that time you are not into that kind of thing. That time you didn't even had that kind of power too. See whenever I was busy my own 10,000 people were in transit camp. How they got the shelter (?). That time I do not had a time, no skill, no knowledge. That's was rehabilitation happened people got the shade, (?) but it is a not the why you only deserved.
Simpreet Singh: Now you feel that design shouldn't be like this?
Jockin Arputham: Yes, that is the reason I am working on it how to change it. I already employed somebody I am worked with 2 lawyers, 2 architects and trying to redesign.
Jockin Arputham: Aree!! What is the Mona's husband name?
Simpreet Singh: Mona who?
Jockin Arputham: Mona Daswani
Simpreet Singh: Mona Daswani
Jockin Arputham:: She is the...
Shaina Anand: Whose husband writes a book on law
Jockin Arputham: Yeah! Yeah! Yeah!
Jockin Arputham: Whose father is the Indian constitution Parsi. Anyway I am getting time regular accountant within.
Shaina Anand: Parsi lawyer ?
Jockin Arputham: Hmm
Shaina Anand: (?) Saurakshi
Jockin Arputham: Hmm! Hmm! You are very close to Saurakshi...
Shaina Anand: (?)
Jockin Arputham: No (?) Ha ha ha ha.
Simpreet Singh: So what changes should be done in the design?
Jockin Arputham: That is impossible to change now.
Simpreet Singh: Yes, impossible.
Jockin Arputham: (?) Every activist raising question after everything is done that is become theirs business. That time nobody was came to asked who is alive or die that time I was dying. This is all the problem that time no single one was there.
Simpreet Singh: If we go back even after 70's particularly after Olga Tellis case...
Jockin Arputham: Olga Tellis who up to 76's
Simpreet Singh: Yes, in 85's that judgement came so many NGO's like YUVA, Nivara Haq...
Jockin Arputham: YUVA was with us from starting but they were not interested in rehabilitation at all.
Simpreet Singh: What was theirs interest?
Jockin Arputham: Only fight and shout for hunger that hunger is in stomach you go and have your whisky, I will have Soda (Fizzy Drinks). I am sorry if you look at it this what was happening. How many people were interested in looking a railway rehabilitation one of the biggest rehabilitation ever held anywhere in India.
Simpreet Singh: I don't want to count which organisation has done what? As Nivara Haq...
Jockin Arputham: I know Nivara Haq 100% what did?
Simpreet Singh: Like Chandiwali.
Jockin Arputham: What they did in Chandiwali? One of the worst worst ever anything construction could be done is in Chandiwali.
Simpreet Singh: According to you?
Jockin Arputham: According to me, according to the government, according to NGO, according to the people, people are now struggling they are not getting water.
Jockin Arputham: I don't go for...
Shaina Anand: But it was architect designed.
Jockin Arputham: S.K. Das design.
Shaina Anand: P.K Das.
Jockin Arputham: P.K Das design.
Simpreet Singh: You might had worked together sometimes?
Jockin Arputham: Many times we worked together some indifference went. I just want to say whatever you had worked that should be for rehabilitate people or not? Otherwise you say? There was a many architects in Bombay (?) intervention was done? Does it happened in any where? Architects increases and buildings development was keep growing.
Jockin Arputham: I think therefore, we are going on a track without getting into all these hyper questions.
Shaina Anand: Its just their're parallel histories which also has better sweet endings (?). For example the one think that for us still looks like a good model was a Nagri Nivara Parishad and the way the (?) Mirnal Gore.
Simpreet Singh: Mirnal Gore.
Jockin Arputham: Mane Tai.
Mane Tai: Yes.
Jockin Arputham: Come here.
Shaina Anand: So, that's a liveable is a good life that's liveable tenements and something plan and maintain.
Jockin Arputham: Anyway I think I would love to go she is the one of the leader of the Nagri Nivara head.
Jockin Arputham: She is the secretary of 265...how much?
Mane Tai: 240
Jockin Arputham: 240
Simpreet Singh: Where?
Mane Tai: NNP (Nagri Nivara Parishad)
Simpreet Singh: In Dindoshi?
Mane Tai: Yes Dindoshi.
Shaina Anand: You live there?
Mane Tai: Yes I live there
Jockin Arputham: The another guy who is a leader in our (?) for federation who has is a membership in the Nagri Nivara. I interacted with Mirnal Gore so well. I know the Dada and I was interested my sharing all ideas with them I (?) with Mirnal tai anyway.
Shaina Aanad: We felt difference in a simple way people were proud of themselves because they took out their own money from bank account by doing registered for self re-development happened. And architects was planed properly with passion was faced water problem twice but they struggled themselves but which is difference like Lallubhai they pushed them. So NNP are looking unique also in architecture design if in future we want to see some model new rehabilitated housing should look like this. So the only one colony which stand out why they are different and how they got success through design like this project...
Jockin Arputham: No that is because of you are negotiation, you are getting the land, you are not getting that is all legally people hiring putting saving money into their account decide and coming and later on forming into the society 25 years struggle is about 32 years struggle. Here it is not like that everything was a crises...
Simpreet Singh: Like comparison in city people were made different type of...
Jockin Arputham: No, this is need to be debated.
Shaina Anand: He is right, crises you will not there tomorrow.
Jockin Arputham: If suddenly bulldozer arrive in morning. See you people have to learn I will not talk today I will talk sometime later. I was sitting in a MMRDA in the table with the world bank there was a bulldozer going on, on the track my people were calling me what should I tell? Any other people what would they said I am starting taking from P D'Mello till today. Only lightly P D'Mello from Karnataka I am from Karnataka east from Bangalore I am from Bangalore all we are the same. I am an orphan therefore, I took up this line and he is a better of therefore he went P D'Mello then he become like this. George Fernandes and I George were together when (?) in South Korea we were living in the same room. When my room was (?) out and Subrahmanyam Swami room also (?) out anyway this emergency.
Jockin Arputham: That is a different story here my people was struggling on that for single think. What is going to be happened tomorrow god knows? We have to give a call and theirs truck is their (jhopda) shelters will be getting demolished. I have to put my whole mind and make a strategy how to you make use of this horrible for eviction into a practical rehabs (?) that's what I am manage to do.
Nobody thought such a bulldozer situation section 3 thousand (?) houses would get rehabilitate so well. For that reason I am not beautifying what the rehabilitation what done about it that is where I am asking where were these all architects S.K Das activist architects. Including I am asking P.K Das, S.K Das is to worked with me. S.K Das is to sleep in Cheeta Camp.
Shaina Anand: Its a very good question when demolition are going on where are the architects to also do crack down...
Jockin Arputham: No not a single architects, not a single people got out and got into their job questions about designing where are to taking the people jungle this is the future of the city what have you done you don't accept me to do that I am struggling to get them to live. You are enjoying yourself you are not and did anything for me, for the people and the whole rehabilitation getting over in five years, ten years everything are sort it out completely. Now that the policy existing, now nobody is ready to question even today not doing anything. You are doing beautiful park, beautiful garden, beautiful this and that and that everything, your designing high sky park and (?) then you still call yourself an activist.
Jockin Arputham: Anyway let me not get jump on it I will become hyper and I...
Simpreet Singh: Ha ha
Shaina Anand: No no there are two more questions I think one we'll do next time which is we have done some maths it is romantic maths since, idealistic maths but it is what would it be to cost the dis-house in the city?
Jockin Arputham: Very good very good.
Shaina Anand: What could be models for it so we though one day just to a spot and bounce this ideas of to see does it all because on paper actually sounds possible. If you understand land use, if you appropriate all these leases that have mapped in 1990 (?) that government are giving for public act how...
Jockin Arputham: See there are 3 litigation are still pending in the high court I challenge on the size...
Simpeet Singh: Size of?
Jockin Arputham: Size of the 225 I challenge it, I challenge the back to back ventilation when you back to back to the (?) you cant't do that its an human then you convention prevent that you are not answer that. My advocate (?) you know it will go to (?) you have to have (?) of the lawyers. Even though I am him approach him work with him told him to file (?) we have filed it.
Shaina Anand: So against to 225 what is the...
Jockin Arputham: Against 225 also why 225? which (?) talk to you 225, which provision you have to give 225. Where is my privacy is this a privacy which you permit. 225 because even 225 today in the design (?) not a kitchen. In (?) convention is questions you did you have can't give a family unit with a kitchen. (?) stand that is still pending.
Shaina Anand: So this is as SPARC or you are individual petitioner or is a NSDF.
Jockin Arputham: NSDF only...
Shaina Anand: Okay, Yeah!
Jockin Arputham: Then you have to take.. My God this stupid architect (?) name is not coming?? I am take out.
Simpreet Singh: Yes,So this case doesn't come?
Jockin Arputham: No no.
Simpreet Singh: I think Bombay High Court?
Jockin Arputham: Bombay High Court
Shaina Anand: And second is? Second case was?
Jockin Arputham: This is against this whole narrow passage Lallubhai.
Shaina Anand: The limits between to peoples.
Jockin Arputham: I have called central jail (?)
Simpreet Singh: Could you remember who was the architect for that?
Jockin Arputham: This is all I know all of them, I know every bloody bastard personally because there were interested only making money. And Mr Chandra Shekhar was he was not a man of rehabilitation at all. He was just to take them and dump it I don't care.
Simpreet Singh: T. Chandra Shekhar ?
Jockin Arputham: T. Chandra Shekhar that is way he is a bulldozer man. he was in clean Jockin anyhow.
Simpreet Singh: Where he is now ?
Jockin Arputham: He is in Andhra.
Simpreet Singh: Okay, He is in Andhra.
Jocikin Arputham: Started political party he can't even smile, he can't become a councillor out side.
Shaina Anand: And speaking of high court we just got the news the M ward Mankhurd transit camp has taken MMRDA and SPARC to go?
Jockin Arputham: No that is a cheating case.
Shaina Anand: What happened in that because they are saying they gave keys in M ward mean symbolic keys Vilasrao Deshmukh said you will be house..
Jockin Arputham: I am rehabilitating now my work is already over see this is the problem.
Shaina Anand: They are saying we have been in the transit camp since 13 years.
Jockin Arputham,: Yes I have taken them there. Though it has been 13 years but they still not cleared the lists now who will do of 25. Till that you have put 3 people in one room now you are looking in high court to approval. Who is gone to the court is more important. Who is the cheater, who is the complete wrong character?
Shaina Anand: Cheating case mean?
Jockin Arputham: He is not a right guy his mother was a pavement dweller in Cross Maidan. I rehabilitated them. I took them to say stop by then there was a demolition continues demolition in Azad Maidan, Cross Maidan, whole A ward. That is the time I took them let's go and live in transit camp so that at least we'll say. When that is time onward working on policy up rehabilitating all the A ward people. When the policy come we were all eligible for 225. When the policy come people were living in the policy they said you have to be live in the site.
Simpreet Singh: To be eligible?
Jockin Arputham: To be eligible. So since you have been shifted you can't be eligible. They (?) group all the struggle (?) I just got approval, already got 335 families recognised.
Shaina Anand: In city in A ward?
Jockin Arputham: No no they we'll be rehabilitated in Markhurd somewhere very soon. Very soon may be in the monsoon time. They are only 355 eligible.
Simpreet Singh: Rest are?
Jockin Arputham: Rest all are 900 people are just by the (?) gone caught somewhere someone enter here. And you informed them into a committee and going and collecting money and go to the file a petition against safety.
Simpreet Singh: Which I think larger question of the city people are more or...
Jockin Arputham: City you cannot even tell city (?) open for everybody housing right. Keep coming sat in the morning and I'll done that (?) you want that?
Simpreet Singh: No this is a larger question why people come to city?
jockin Arputham: All of us repeating this same thing. People are going to the city where is the attraction? City is the attraction keep on coming. What is the policy says about it you have cutoff date, house for all. House for all means where to implementation. You are having a concept of free housing is existing. And how do you accept so all these people come and (?) so tomorrow night or tonight I am not here in the Dharavi. 10 people came and entered here and ask for (?) they will go to the court and court will listen to them? (?) listen to them. How do we think it this is just become a activist not just activity. You have to right fully think about and ask about it what to done, how to be done, what is your cutoff date. You want to have cutoff date or you don't want to have.
Simpreet Singh: This questions are there.
Jockin Arputham: This questions is going to live there for ages. No bureaucracy nobody is going to be come to rule the country where not cutoff date.
Shaina Anand: Are they good example internationally from your international network of low cost housing not necessarily free housing but there is a question in what he saying that people will come to the city they deserve dignity of...
Jockin Arputham: What I was telling them why I was debating but they good committee with the government. Which I said you set up a plots even now. You can set up a plots in the (?) of the city. I think that will be interesting for us to think about it. Develop 10,000 plots today you look at 30 how much is (?) 10,000. Then you decide a policy one family one house and one family 10 rs per house ft, per occupational per plot. You come at (?) number family all Indian tradition is very horrible one of the worst bastard high society. Today uncle will come, tomorrow aunty will come, uncle has a one plot, aunty has one plot and new baby in womb has a one plot booking. Who will give? This government will give. How you can solve this problem therefore, society to be organise I told the government you give it to me I will organise. Get plot develop all around (?) may be at Dahidar beyond Dahisar.
Simpreet Singh: I think that site and service happened that sort of thing?
Jockin Arputham: No, that is also where you developed? You developed right outside the city. You can't accept expensive luxury of living as a key.
Simpreet Singh: No, but as I think there will be still question about that why on the (?)
Jockin Arputham: Why don't you come and sit in Taj hotel.
Simpreet Singh: Yeah!!
Shaina Anand: No or Dharavi (?)
Jockin Arputham: See Dharavi, as it is Dharavi is overload.
Simpreet Singh: Means the question of density is there?
Jockin Arputham: Then you make Dharavi (?) fifties story. Then also you wanted to bring more people in Dharavi what is the meaning of it? So some of this undissolvable questions.
Shaina Anand: Did you see Kaala? You should talk about it.
impreet Singh: Kaala movie you have been acknowledged in the film.
Jockin Arputham: You know this guy that the producer Rajinikanth, director came here one day.
Shaina Anand: P.A. Ranjith.
Jockin Arputham: And he and his...
Shaina Anand: Dhanush is the producer.
Jockin Arputham: Dhanush came here...
Simpreet Singh: Pa. Ranjith.
Shaina Anand: P.A. Ranjith.
Simpreet Singh: P.A. Ranjith, director
Jockin Arputham: He came and sit here for 3 days eating my bheja (mind)
Shaina Anand: Ha ha
Jockin Arputham: I asked him why are you with me nothing to do with it. No no no I don't know how much he wrote and how much he (?) and all that and then they left. And I don;t know what happened.
Shaina Anand: You should see the film.
Simpreet Singh: The kachara party is there the picnic that you have done in...
Shaina Anand: Means the civil disobedience of dumping garbage..
Simpreet Singh: Janata Colony that is shown in the film.
Shaina Anand: Against the builder lobby.
Jockin Arputham: Show me 2 movies get one Kaala put at home another is Shree 420 Raj Kapoor's very nice movie that I want to see anyhow. I can't see on my eyes I don't know how I will watch
Simpreet Singh: You can hear.
Jockin Arputham: I can see like this Raj Kapoor...
Shaina Anand: Who is it? (?) leader there is a model in Kaala.
Simpreet Singh: I am forgetting the name.
Shaina Anand: Who was the here leader.
Simpreet Singh: Before Vardha Rajan.
Shaina Anand: So the Kaala the don figure is modelled on this guy what his name?
Simpreet Singh: I don't know now.
Shaina Anand: So the that politics is interesting but Tamil vs Maharashtrian. And the rise of Shiv Sena and that whole 1980's politics is very well shown in the film.
Jockin Arputham: Ohh!! you are talking about the...
Shaina Anand: (?) leader.
Simpreet Singh: But not Vardha Rachak.
Jockin Arputham: This is a parallel to Vardha Rajan... Yeah!! his died
Simpreet Singh: Yes, he died.
Jockin Arputham: This is 2 parts from guys ruled Dharavi.
Shaina Anand: So that treatment is very good and the other treatment his done is Dalit vs Hindu upper cast. Which is mirrored in the same thing Shiv Sena vs (?). Its very entertaining to see and uplifting but the housing in and then the third plot is Dharavi re-development and how the people resistance. You must see it because you see where all his drawn inspiration from. Like he eaten your bheja so he is taken some strategy is in story. So when we saw the kachra... And then very powerful which is WhatsApp and social media. If you going to demolish Dharavi we'll go on strike so then BMC people are going on strike, Uber drivers going on strike, trains... How the working class that is lived here we all decide to go on strike we can bring the city to (?) so there was a romantic moment.
Simpreet Singh: Regarding future question given your experience what sort of intervention you think can be possible or should be. If we take Kaala movie reference in that land should be in our name and we'll develop by our own and in other-way in Bombay in many years...
Jockin Arputham: After you people are talking about I am getting the idea. How this movie become a relevant to the development at Dharavi. The movie is touch and go it is not coming and breath in study spirit, energy to people to organise together. What I was talking to them in it is easy for me tomorrow I can call for a strike. What I do is all of them my members I'll say to everybody do a strike tomorrow in Dharavi will do jam.