Slum Bombay: Interview with S.K. Sharma, Manjit Singh (Ralli Jacob, Rafeeq Ellias, P.K. Das)

Slum Bombay: Interview with S.K. Sharma, Manjit Singh

Director: Ralli Jacob, Rafeeq Ellias, P.K. Das; Cinematographer: Rafeeq Ellias

Duration: 00:22:14; Aspect Ratio: 1.366:1; Hue: 33.298; Saturation: 0.250; Lightness: 0.192; Volume: 0.095; Cuts per Minute: 1.394; Words per Minute: 100.030

Interview with S.K. Sharma (Chairman & Managing Director, HUDCO 1985-1991)
Interview with Manjit Singh (Additional Commissioner, Municipal Corporation of Delhi)

Interview with S.K. Sharma.

S.K. Sharma: You see when you are dealing with the housing problem in the national scene, you have to deal with so many agencies, state authorities, the housing board, city authorities, the town planners... Then if you're really working towards a peoples' program, you see very intense interactions with the professionals involved and other voluntary organisations - all very important. Now these problems of interface or involvement with these organisations can pose various problems. For example most of the state authorities are structured traditionally as construction organisations, because in the past housing was always looked upon as you need a person to build and that is how you're going to solve the housing problem.

S.K. Sharma: Now starting with such organisations, to tell them now we are not builders but you have now to do accommodative development, then also it becomes extremely difficult. So we have to think in terms of training, re-training, changing of attitudes of people. But what we are trying to do in HUDCO is that we are trying to establish a very wide network of institutions and professionals and NGOs or voluntary organisations, so that we derive all the strength from them rather than trying to build everything within, which is really not possible, nor necessary. So the whole idea is that the governmental sector, the professional sector and the peoples' sector as you might call it, all have to play their roles and a system has to be evolved in which everybody gets an opportunity to express itself.

S.K. Sharma: HUDCO itself has now completed 25 years of its existence. It has created an impact on the scene - I won't have pretensions of claiming that we have in any way been able to effectively solve the housing problem. But we definitely have made a statement and we have established certain directions. Now in this we are a very compact organisation - we are just about 500 total personnel in this organisation both professional, non-professional staff put together. We have some very dedicated group of officers at different levels both in the architectural side, engineering side, finance and these people.

S.K. Sharma: And the way the whole organisation has come up we are quite confident that it cannot sort of detract from the method it is functioning. The problem really arises in organisations which carry a very large staff overhead and then you get knotted into your own problems and you cannot look into external problems. That is why we recruit staff very carefully. And then wherever required we use external services very extensively and that is how we keep the organisation trim and working efficiently.

S.K. Sharma: Now if one way to ask how really the problem of housing can be solved. Now the housing problem cannot be solved in isolation, as has been very clear to all of us. We have the poverty related issues in this country, we have the population issue. So ultimately of course housing has to be related to the overall development process in the country. But the concept that you see development will take place and that housing will automatically get solved - now that has also belied itself, that has not happened.

S.K. Sharma: So what we have to do is we definitely have to establish strategies which are positively looking at the human settlement problems. What is happening sometimes is we are assuming that human settlements are coming in then we are trying to solve the problem. If we say that people are always going move into Delhi and Bombay and then we have to go on solving the problems - its very elementary knowledge that we cannot provide houses to everybody here. So the strategies of human settlements, how population are distributed, they are very key factors, in that industrial location there is a type of networking which you want to do, all these become a part of it. But finally the key to the matter is that we in this development process we have to develop a low consumption economy. The consumerism which is coming in and the desire of people to spend more and more and that is way people there is a vested interest in coming to big cities so the prices will go up and people become rich because of escalation in land values.

S.K. Sharma: Now these attitudinal changes in people are necessary so that we have a better not only distribution of land but distribution in incomes, you see there's disparity in income which development generally promotes that does not take place. Well these are all good thoughts but these are not very easy to implement, but these are very basic and primal and if we are looking to solution of the housing it is not just pure economic development which is going to solve the problem. It is the distribution of the benefits economic development and how they are promoted through the planning process - these are going to play a very vital role.

Vijay Kamble: Sir there is always difference between government policies and mass's aspiration - how HUDCO helps to meet these two things?

Vijay Kamble: Sir, there is a difference between government policies and general mass's aspiration - how HUDCO helps to meet these both things?

Vijay Kamble: Sir, always there is a difference between government policies and people's aspiration. How HUDCO helps to meet these both?

Vijay Kamble: There is inequality between government policy and people emotion How do HUDCO see together?

Vijay Kamble: Last questions, can you put your view point how to solve the housing issues ?

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Vijay Kamble: Last question, what is your personal opinion on this?

Vijay Kamble: Last question, what is your personal view point and what is person solution on housing issues?

Vijay Kamble: What is your personal view point on this housing problem?

Vijay Kamble: Sir, very last question. What is your opinion on housing problem?

Vijay Kamble: Sir, last question what is your personal solution to this housing problem?

Vijay Kamble: Sir, will you please explain as a last question what is your personal solution to this housing problem?

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Interview with Additional Commissioner, Manjit Singh, from the Municipal Corporation of Delhi. Vijay Kamble is an invented name for poet and singer Sambhaji Bhagat who was recruited to do these interviews.

Anjana: Hello, Mr. Manjit Singh. This is Mr. Vijay Kamble, from Bombay.

He lives and works in the slums. He is very much involved with development, housing.

So I thought what better person than you to explain to him how slum upgradation, quality of life, everything can be improved.

Manjit Singh: DDA's slum wing - which you mentioned - is an autonomous wing of the DDA, whose work is to look into development of all of Delhi's slums, notified slum areas, hutments, also other areas of economically weaker sections. DDA formed this autonomous wing so that it had the neceesary rights and permissions to carry on its work speedily. As you know slums have become a very large part of Delhi now. - 2,50,000 hutments in Delhi, in more than 800 slum areas.

Manjit Singh: Additionally Delhi has other notified slum areas. Now the need for development has increased so much that there was no way to reach all of them without the formation of a specialised wing. The slum wing has been given sole responsibility to do this work in all slums. The slum department has made several schemes towards this. There are mainly 3 types of schemes especially aimed at slums, through which we work on development. One is the slums which are on government property - these lands are project lands - the slums must be moved out of there so that these schemes may be implemented.

Manjit Singh: As you know in Delhi these lands are owned by various land owning agencies. These lands either belong to DDA, or slum department, or corporation, or Delhi govt, or India govt's Ministry of Urban Development, Ministry of Defence, Railways, DMC.. various agencies of Delhi. Slums have encroached on these lands. The govt's new schemes regarding upgradation of slums or housing for the poor, have in them one very clear policy - if the displaced slum dwellers must be resettled by this slum wing. These project lands are needed for various projects, if we displace the slum dwellers, we'll provide a rehabilitation plot - 21 gaz plot. Now according to the new scheme we are to provide a rehabilitation plot, which already has a plinth and a flush latrine, and along with that we'll also provide them loans for rehabilitation from HUDCO, and another Delhi Administration organisation which provides home loans.

Manjit Singh: For the first time in the history of Delhi slums improvement, this step has been taken - of providing them along with rehabilitation plot also financial help so that they can build their own homes as soon as they get their plots. Actually, in the past 12-13 years in Delhi about 2,40,000 plots have been provided in these rehabilitation areas, but they were not provided loans. Later we did a survey and got to know that 50-55% people in rehabilitation areas had sold their plot and gone away. I got the opportunity to speak with many people about this, and one thing kept coming up - that government gave us plots, but they did't give us any means to build a house. And what we poor people earn is spent in daily expenses with nothing to spare. With no money to save, how can we build homes? - And so it became clear to us that they need financial help, else they cannot build. And then the property dealers will buy their plots from them.

Manjit Singh: With these experience, through new schemes we are providing them plot and loan also. If you go and see now, through this scheme in some slums we have provided plot and loan also. One type of scheme is such where we need to shift them from lands for govt projects. There are some slum lands in Delhi whose land we don't need for the next few years. So for those we are trying On-Site Upgradation which is another important policy for Delhi's slums (low income housing) - that rationalisation and planning and plot allotment should be done on-site itself.

Manjit Singh: We did some experiments and pilot projects in Delhi. Of which one very important project in Delhi which was very successful was Prayog Vihar in West Delhi, and second project is Ekta Vihar in South Delhi. Through these pilot projects we formed committees per community for the people where they are living. We interacted with them and made one plan together with the community people. And through that plan all the land where they are living at present - some land was lying wasted, those were consolidated and made into one plan. And all the slum dwellers were allotted rehabilitation plots after division there itself. They were also provided with bank loans.

Manjit Singh: We can only do on-site upgradation where the land owning agencies do not need the land. But as far as I can see, no land owning agency is ready to say they don't need their land. And we also see that for years on end they've not taken care of their land, and I don't think they would be doing something about it in coming years either. And this is a very difficult process with land owning agencies - nor are they using their land themselves, nor are they willing to let Slum Department use it - So that poor slum dwellers could be given on-site upgradation whereby their lives may improve for some years.

Manjit Singh: And this is a very nice scheme and the pilot projects we did in Delhi were appreciated by the highest authorities of Planning Commission, Ministry of Urban Development's highest authorities from Delhi administration and whoever professionals - architects, town planners, who are dealing with town development. My goal this year, 1991, is that approximately 1600 family through this policy category should be settled there itself - where they are living at preset.

Manjit Singh: Because another thing is observed - if you relocate them to the city's peripheral limits, they face trouble with transportation, income generation gets more complicated. And infrastructural facilities for social development - schools for theirs kids, dispensary, income generation, and especially women of the community who went to neighbourhood houses as domestic help and supplemented their family income - all are disrupted. Thus we observe that by relocating them we've not really resolved problems but in fact we created more social fund services problems for us.

Manjit Singh: So looking at all these things, Integrated Development of Slums concepts that we run in Delhi, where we see that all these poor people should be integrated in development where they can become a part of the development and townships where - LIG, MIG, SFS and those in middle income group and rich people - should become part of their housing. Earlier we kept in them rehabilitation areas - they were distanced from the city, they got cut off from the richer neighbourhoods where these women could have worked for income. They faced many other difficulties. But the new strategies we've put in place takes into account all these issues with respect to the slum dwellers. And the integrated development...

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