PEACE: Public Meeting at Masalewala Hall in Dongri
Director: Shaina Anand
Duration: 01:45:48; Aspect Ratio: 1.778:1; Hue: 90.252; Saturation: 0.018; Lightness: 0.230; Volume: 0.255; Cuts per Minute: 1.474; Words per Minute: 137.881
Summary: "Peace
With the excuse of eradicating world terrorism, subtle American
terrorism is strengthening. The entire world is now plunged in the
shadows of yet another unwanted world war. What kind of role should
India play in world politics? What kind of effect will it have on
India? The change in the attitude towards the Muslims will have what
kind of impact on the society.
We are organising public meeting on above topic on 16th October 2001.
Looking forward for your participation.
Venue : Masalewala Hall, 74, H. A. Walji Marg, 2nd floor,
above Development Credit Bank, Dongri, Mumbai 400009
Timing : 6.00pm To 9.00pm
Chairperson : Just. R. A. Jahangirdar
Speakers : Sajid Rashid (Editor; Mahanagar)
Ram Punyani (Prof. From IIT)
Advocate Mihir Desai (Hon director ICHRL)
For more information contact Chetna on 3716690
Chetna Birje Praful Shinde Hasina Khan Shakeel Ahmed
(ICHRL) India Center for Human Rights and Law
(Sampark)
(AEN) Awaaz e Niswaan
(NBA) Nirbhay Bano Andolan"
This is the invitation for the talk dug up from an internet cache of the now defunct SACW list (south asian citizens watch). Shaina Anand attended the meeting and documented the entire public address and the 'debate' that followed. It makes for an interesting reading, summarising various viewpoints of our 'left'.
America
Dalai Lama
Fidel Castro
Masalewala Hall, Dongri, Mumbai, India
Osama Bin Laden
Pope John Paul
Sikh
That country's pride, that state government's pride, in just an hour was crumbled and fallen. Any way, then there was an outrage in which six thousand innocent people from every religion, every caste and every nation were killed. And along with it an atmosphere was created; there were two to three things in that atmosphere. Firstly, it was felt that America, which is a powerful nation in the world, on this occasion will think logically and work, by which not only an act of revenge, but a new solution would be the outcome, based on which we will act. During this period, three to four prominent personalities of the world - in which Fidel Castro is on one side, Pope John Paul on the other side, and the Dalai Lama is on the third side - these people made an appeal to America stating that 'you all should not act with the feeling of revenge but with peace, by which the problems of the world are solved, in reality. And not with only an act of revenge, which will not work.'
But something else happened. Firstly, in America we saw that there were hidden emotions of racism, looking at others in a disparaging way... all these started to surface. Fortunately this wasn't much. Then, unfortunately, many of our Sikh brothers lost their lives in it on the basis that they look like Osama Bin Laden and might be his supporters.
racism
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Dr. Ram Punyani, a professor of Bio-Medical Engineering at IIT (Mumbai) discusses the immediate reactions to the September 11 attacks by the American government, its citizens and other prominent personalities of the world.
Dr. Punyani also serves as the Secretary of EKTA, Committee for Communal Amity, and has published a number of articles detailing his political views. A great deal of his current discussion appears to have its roots in an early article titled 'Identity, Religion and Nationalism of Minorities', posted online at
www.truthindia.com on October 1, 2000.
http://www.truthindia.com/page6.html
Masalewala Hall, Dongri, Mumbai, India
Ram Punyani talks of how America blamed Osama Bin Laden for the attacks but failed to provide any proof of the same to either the UN or the International Court of Justice.
Dr. Punyani's statements seem to be backed by the contents of an interview conducted by the Karachi-based Pakistani daily newspaper 'Ummat', published on September 28, 2001. The interview, its impact and supposed manipulation are discussed at
http://www.public-action.com/911/oblintrv.html
The decision was made that, this incident (9/11), is the work of Osama Bin Laden and his other compliances. In these times, when there are big justice institutions, where there are big, big organisations, none of them were given any proof or any evidence.
Osama Bin Laden
a complete analysis of what ram said by ruchi
Kofi Annan was given the Nobel Peace Prize for promoting peace. At the same time, America was disturbing the peace there. United Nations did not protest against it, Kofi Annan also did not protest against it. And on a lighter note, before going ahead, our governors of India, their attitude was the best. America was asking everybody in the world, was asking Pakistan, 'I am going to attack. Are with me or not?' They were saying 'yes' sometimes and saying 'no' sometimes. They were saying 'yes' and 'no.' That is why from the start, our big, big politicians from the Bhartiya Janta Party who are at the peak of patriotism, from before, in front of America folded their hands and stood up saying, 'We are ready, you can take help from us.' In the beginning I was amazed by this. But then I saw that it was the same situation everywhere - look at the media, go to other places, everybody is trying to outrun the other in order that... (the footage is cut.)
Masalewala Hall, Dongri, Mumbai, India
Ram Punyani discusses the apparently hypocritical stance of the UN and Kofi Annan, the then Secretary-General of the United States, both of whom were awarded the Nobel Peace Prize in 2001. He goes on to mock the politicians in the Bharatiya Janta Party for having rushed forward to offer America India's support before Pakistan could resolutely do the same.
The cut-off quote at the end seems to imply seems that the continued rivalry and game of one-upmanship that has been played out for years between India and Pakistan happened to influence this decision as well; a common perception shared by many. America being the political and economic super power that it was at the time would have been a strong deciding factor in this rivalry, should things have progressed towards that end.
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By taking aeroplanes which belonged to that country (i.e. America), will break that country's (i.e. America's) pride. This was not a joke; gambling with one's own life. Maybe the revolt, and feeling of anger in them was exacerbated to such an extent that they were not able to control it. Terrorism should not be supported by anybody at any time. But the reasons why terrorism exists needs to be understood by everybody. Today Islamic terrorism, the clash of civilisations - all of these are being discussed in the whole world. It leaves me amazed. War on terrorism, war against terrorism, we can fight and end 'terrorism' is the key word being said by the world's most prominent intellectuals. But not a single voice is heard which states that terrorism takes birth only when democracy stops; when you block the democratic channels, then only resentment comes in the form of terror. I don't see anybody talking about this in the international world. If one leaves out people like Noam Chomsky, Edward Said, and the scientist Newton, then this issue is not talked about that much. Everyone is trying to outrun each other in showcasing their braveness; 'We will win the fight against terrorism!' By killing terrorists, will terrorism end? Do you remember that terrorism is now linked to a different issue? Today, after the 11th of September, in the world, in the common world, in what we call social common sense, all the people walking on the roads have developed an equation - Islam, Taliban, Terrorism, Osama Bin Laden, all these are related. There is something in the word Islam that gives a boost to terrorism. Such a closed perspective existing in society amazes me!
Masalewala Hall, Dongri, Mumbai, India
Ram Punyani discusses the possible reasons for the existence of terrorism, as well as the fall-out from the 9/11 attacks. The now automatic association between Islam and terrorism is a rather closeted view, but it undeniably exists.
11th Septemeber
Edward Said
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How can we forget that Rajiv Gandhi was killed by a terrorist who belonged to a different religion? In Ireland, till date the terrorism continues. And there is no religion in the world in which there are no terrorists. You bring it to my notice, I will salute you. The question is not of religion. Here I don't want to go on Islam, Islam means peace, what does Islam mean by
'jihad'? etc. etc. That you all can observe. But do remember, around the world, terrorists have been born in different religions and they have in this same way gambled their lives, who they wanted to kill, and accordingly they have spread the terror.
Masalewala Hall, Dongri, Mumbai, India
Ram Punyani talks of how terrorism is not defined to a particular religion by citing the example of Rajiv Gandhi's assassination, and referring to the situation in Ireland.
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... conflict, the clash of civilisation. To date we have been brought up in a progressive heredity. We felt that there is a conflict between the rich and the poor, there is a conflict between the exploiter and the exploited, there is a conflict between a strong nation and a weak nation. But there's also a conflict between civilisations which we never heard of. But since the last ten years, this same issue is being put forward before us with a lot of strength. And I am speaking of this on purpose and taking full responsibility for doing so. Because these civilisations like... (the footage has been cut.)
...clash, not the civilisations. And here, do see, the issue being made that this is a conflict between Islam and the western civilisation and this is the end result. Firstly, do see the cleverness of these thinkers. What's their cleverness? They will never say that there is a conflict between Islam and Christianity. They will say that there is a conflict between Hinduism and Islam, that there is a conflict between Hinduism and western civilisation, there is a conflict between Hind... Islam and western civilisation. From this I remember that, when describing the history of India, the practice which they used to describe was Hindu period, Muslim period and British period.
Masalewala Hall, Dongri, Mumbai, India
Ram Punyani is discussing the 'Clash of Civilisations' theory and its specific relation to religion.
The 'Clash of Civilisations' is a theory proposed by political scientist Samuel P. Huntington in his book
The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order [Huntington, Samuel P.,
The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order (New York: Simon and Schuster, 1997)]. The theory details the possibility that people's cultural and religious identities will be the primary source of conflict in the post-Cold War world. Selected sections of the book can be viewed for free at
http://www.foreignaffairs.org/19930601faessay5188/samuel-p-huntington/the-clash-of-civilizations.html.
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Masalewala Hall, Dongri, Mumbai, India
Ram Punyani is discussing a potential cause of terrorism, the creation of Israel and the motives behind it.
Such civilisations are being attacked. Therefore firstly, we need to think about the reasons why this terrorism was born. After the second world war, when by international decision Israel was created on a single basis, what was the device behind this? We will come to know it slowly. But, Israel was created. You all create one nation, ten nations... (The footage is cut.)
The world - America, Britain and other such big countries - stood in front of it with firmness. And, now putting this issue aside, I will tell you one thing. The friendship between Israel and America is such that if and when anyone said anything about their religion, their nation, being racist, then both together will stage a walkout from the meeting as they did in Durban.
Anyway leaving this point and coming to the main point. The policy that had worked for the creation of Israel and feelings of anger and rebellion among Philistines was the American policy. At the same time when there was cold war where America was trying to expand its dynasty in the world, simultaneously Soviet Union felt the same, and in Afghanistan they brought their troops and captured Afghanistan.
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Masalewala Hall, Dongri, Mumbai, India
Now here during the cold war, people who talk of Islamic terrorism - where did this terrorism come from? At that time America, with Pakistan acting as a medium, motivated the most fundamentalist group among Muslims, i.e. the Taliban. This Osama Bin Laden on whose name bombings are happening at different places, that Osama Bin Laden was trained by none other than C.I.A. Today, Osama Bin Laden is using the same training against them, and this is what we need to remember. So the point on which I wanted to get your attention is that all countries adjoining middle Asia where Muslims are in predominance; America and other western countries... (the footage is cut.)
It is a war that's happening on the people of Afghanistan. War is fought between two powers. It was not a war that happened between Iraq and America. That was a one sided attack made by America on Iraq. Today, it's not a war between Afghanistan and America. It's a one sided attack made by America on the people of Afghanistan. So, in this war the primary motive I assume is that America wants to retain possession of the oil refineries in middle Asia, and this is the main reason for these happenings.
Ram Punyani is criticising America for attacking Iraq and Afghanistan, and questioning the motives involved for doing so. He also states that Osama Bin Laden is using the training he received from the C.I.A. against America. In this section, it appears that Punyani is contradicting his earlier stance regarding Bin Laden's innocence, his supposed love of peace, by making reference to the use of previously learned strategies against America at large.
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Masalewala Hall, Dongri, Mumbai, India
Now, whenever you exploit people, commit atrocities and spread terror, at that time you don't say, 'I am exploiting you. I want to take away the oil in here, that is why I want to hold up this place.' For these, big words are invented. When the British came here in India, to establish their markets, to take away the raw materials from here, they didn't say, ' We are here to take away the raw materials.' They said, 'We have come to give you culture. To give you all culture. This is our white, Britisher's cultural weight which we are carrying on our shoulders and making you all cultured.' The same issue of culture is being raised again because the motive behind it is economic. That economic motive is to continue to occupy on to the world reserves and the world markets. Here, I would like to join the present Indian situation to the current International situation.
Ram Punyani correlates the current economic situation in the countries under attack by America with the previous exploitation of India by the British under the guise of providing culture and civilization.
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I have never thought deeply on this. But in the last few days, I feel that whenever some countries of the world... (The footage has been.)
(?). That fight is to keep the Dalits, minorities, and the victims in the society at the same level and to maintain a certain amount of pressure on them. Certain political games are being played. In the same way, today there is this type of thought in my mind that the issue of the clash of civilisations is being discussed because in society, in the country, or in the world, there are some poor countries who are not as powerful as America, etc. To maintain the pressure on these countries these issue of culture and civilisation is being talked of, that we, the western cultured countries, have taken the tender for culture - 'For centuries, we have been the contractors of culture. At first, we gave culture to different countries in the world. Now, these religious people are standing up against our culture and hence to put them down, we will come forth.' So, friends, this is my former understanding of the current situation.
Masalewala Hall, Dongri, Mumbai, India
Ram Punyani airs his views on the pressure exerted by the presumed status of the western world as the builders of culture on countries less fortunate than them. He cross-references the same with the status of Dalits and outcasts in society, and the pressure exerted upon them by those who exist in the higher echelons of society.
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Earlier I wanted to join in the role of United Nations, the role of the General Secretary of the United Nation. Today I pity that the United Nations, which had the potential to become the government of the world, which could have strengthened the process of democratisation in the world, is like a dead body today, only receiving Nobel prize and at a stage where it can do nothing in the world. War happens. After the war it can only do the job of administering first-aid to the people affected. But it doesn't dare say to a powerful country like America that what it is doing is wrong. It doesn't say 'if your country has been attacked, catch hold of the people who have done it. But for that you cannot attack the innocent people in Afghanistan.' Iraq had attacked Kuwait, it's right. But for that you cannot commit atrocities on five lac people of Iraq. India, in 1982, had made Sikkim a part of its country, but did American forces bomb Delhi and Mumbai? Did they commit such an atrocity on India? Because India doesn't have the type of oil which America needs to retain control of. And when atrocities were being committed on the people of Iraq by the Americans, even then the United Nations was reduced to just a desk in the American State department, the Desk of the State Department of America.
Masalewala Hall, Dongri, Mumbai, India
Ram Punyani speaks on the rapidly generating power and role of the United Nations in international politics, particularly with respect to America's war on Afghanistan, and the war between Iraq and Kuwait.
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Masalewala Hall, Dongri, Mumbai, India
Ram Punyani criticises the Indian policy of following America's lead. Having praised those American citizens who take it upon themselves to criticise America or question the current political policies, he then directs the crowd's attention to America's self-obsessed paranoia with regard to attack.
So, friends, a lot of can be said about this. But in my mind, till here, it is our
pida,
dard, our pain. But what next? How do we go ahead? Firstly, today the situation to me seems like there is one cat and we are among the many rats. And whenever the cat feels like it, it attacks Iraq, it attacks Afghanistan, it attacks East Timor, it attacks the Sudan's chemical factory. Now, who will tie the bell around this cat? So our Jaswant Singh and Advani
ji are very clever, they say, 'Let's join the cat, we won't have to face any troubles. Till then if other rats are dying let them die.' This is one way. The other way is to democratise the world. Civil voices are necessary, they need to be raised. Today, on one side America is bullying others. On the other side, it has also digested this thought that however strong our arms be, however many arms we have, however many submarines we have, there will always be danger stalking us. And I see a ray of hope whenever there is a protest at MID where four thousand students participate, in New York where many groups of human rights gather for a meeting, in which they criticize their own country, stating that what the country is doing is wrong. Today, in the world, we need to develop a peace movement which talks of giving an equal citizenship, equal rights to all the countries and individuals in the world. If the United Nations...
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If the United Nations is dead, if Kofi Annan is just happy with the lacs of money he received from the Nobel prize, then let him be. We need an International Civil Movement. We will also see when America and its supporters manage to stop this movement. If our voice is for truth, if our voice is such that it can appeal to people, then for sure this voice will reach the American people, the European people and will shake their government. Today, only one nation in the world having democracy won't work. At one side we need to save our locals, at the same time we need to raise the international issue of how to expand world democracy. Thirdly, what is said on roads and in the by lanes about Islam, the transmission of wrong messages, should not be taken lightly. This is the seed which can grow into a full fledge dangerous poisonous tree tomorrow. We need to spread the word that nations of the world do not work for religion. The religion which preaches terrorism is not a religion.
Masalewala Hall, Dongri, Mumbai, India
Ram Punyani is pontificating on the need for an International Civil Movement and the need for the expansion of democracy. He also speaks regarding the ill effects of relating terrorism directly to religion.
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Masalewala Hall, Dongri, Mumbai, India
Ram Punyani ends his speech by discussing the need to strengthen the process of democratisation. He summarises the points made throughout the course of his speech and urges the crowd to unite against the larger issues, and to forget their petty differences.
(?). This is not terrorism in the name of religion. This is terrorism born of the people's displeasure. And if such displeasure is not addressed, terrorism will not end in the world. We also have a big challenge in front of us; we need to forget our smaller differences. To date, I have seen that in progressive cultures, we are always waiting for an excuse like 'how I have a different opinion than yours. That is why my shop is different.' I will make forty groups, fifty groups, which will lead to five hundred groups, and today there is a different opportunity. Today we need to unite if we agree on the following issues - we are against terrorism, we are against American bullying behaviour, we are against politics played in the name of religion, we are against the issue of clash of cultures. We want to bring peace in the world. We want to strengthen the process of democratisation. If we agree on these issues, then we need to forget our smaller differences and together we need to create a strong platform. And with this appeal I end my conversation. Thank you very much.
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Friends, Ram has very effectively made his point on how America bullies, and the creation of America's terror. And whatever questions that may have arisen in your mind regarding this conversation, we will discuss that later. When everybody else has finished their conversation, we will take your questions. Now I request Mr. Sajid Rashid to come forward and give his perspective on the American situation and the situation there. He will discuss its effect on us at a social and political level. Sajid Rashid.
Masalewala Hall, Dongri, Mumbai, India
Shakeel Ahmed, MC and organiser of the event, thanks Ram Punyani for his speech. He asks that all questions be held until the end of the session and invites the next speaker, Sajid Rashid, the editor of
Mahanagar (a Hindi-language publication) to proceed with his speech.
Shakeel Ahmed is a human rights lawyer who also spearheads the community education and watchdog movement, Nirbhay Bano Andolan (NBA).
http://proxied.changemakers.net/journal/peace/mosaic.cfm#ahmed discusses the strategies and goals of NBA.
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Masalewala Hall, Dongri, Mumbai, India
Sajid Rashid makes reference to his concerns regarding Ram Punyani's speech, and discusses the notoriety of America and its political stances. He emphases the need to take a clear stance regarding America and the Taliban, while avoiding the obviously extremist possibilities opened up by the previous discussion. Moreover, in doing so, he appears to locate Ram Punyani's speech with the propaganda associated with the
Sang Parivaar, i.e. the far right.
The chieftains of today's meeting, Mr. Mihir, Mr. Ram Punyani, friends and colleagues. In fact, what Ram has said in his speech has placed me in religious conflict. For the last few days, I feel that a wave has been going on in the protest against America.
(?) when used to go for movements, even then we used to shout slogans against America, that also I have seen. And since then we have taken a stand. I have begun to feel that we have gone so far with this protest against America that we are almost walking side by side with the Taliban. And this is very dangerous. Mr. Ram, if I tell you to speak in relation to the
Sangh Parivaar, you will speak so strictly that others will start to perspire. When I was listening to your speech, my problem was that I was feeling that I am Ram Punyani and I was living in a society of
Sangh Parivaar and what stand should I have to take. If Taliban is being supported, if secessionist are being supported, if anti-nationals are being supported, then I will have to think on what stand should we take. Things should be clear. We have a clear stand on America. America is notorious.
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And I even want to say that America never gets involved by itself. Obviously it is a very civilised country, it's cultured. At first it spreads the bait, then it calls out the prey, then flings open the net, and then gathers the net. This is how it does things. It has spread nets all over. There are thirty seven Muslim nations out of which half of them are its slave. And America has not made them wear the badge of slavery. Pardon me. Today, if I get off the stage after the speech, in my friend's circle, there won't be any other person more hated than me. I am in pain for the last two weeks; a mockery is being made in the name of the protest against America. I am hurt on the basis of the issue that this Taliban - who says that in houses, windows should be above eight feet so that the girls cannot see outside, who says that after the age of fourteen no girl has the right to education - this Taliban - who says that women can't step outside their homes unless escorted by a man - this Taliban - who says that women are prohibited to work - we condemn that Taliban, we only condemn. Osama Bin Laden should be treated in this way, and should be treated more badly.
Masalewala Hall, Dongri, Mumbai, India
Sajid Rashid discusses the fact that America's status as a civilised and cultured country acts as a draw for other less-developed nations, eventually resulting in their subordination to this supposedly greater culture and civilisation. It is interesting to note that the only reason this would be able to continue the way it has is due to a continued internalised feeling of colonisation. America has not been the first to cause a version of what Arthur Phillips terms a 'cultural cringe,' where nations are made to feel that their own vernacular languages and national cultures are substandard and subordinate, causing them to attempt to distance themselves from the same. [Phillips, Arthur, 'The Cultural Cringe', in
The Australian Tradition: Studies in a Colonial Culture (Melbourne: Cheshire, 1958)]. Other writers in post-colonial cultures have also taken up discussions on culture-specific fallout due to colonisation by the British, the Dutch, The French and more. For example, Ngugi wa Thiong'o's
Decolonising the Mind deals in large part with the need to reclaim African culture from the encompassing cultural cringe that had come to exist in modern society. [Thiong'o, Ngugi wa,
Decolonising the Mind: The Politics of Language in African Literature (London: James Currey; Nairobi: EAEP; Portsmouth, N.H.: Heinemann, 1986)].
Having made reference to this issue, Rashid however chooses to condemn the Taliban despite the popular opinion at the protest and provides his reasons for doing so.
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I don't understand where are we going this with this protest against America. Till when are we going to talk only theoretically. When will we emerge in reality? When will we see the true picture? Do you all know what has been happening in the Muslim community? Do you all know what will be the outcome of this? If someone asks for blood for the country, no one comes out to even give a drop. Saddam Hussein instigates from there in the name of
jihad. (?) party, the socialist party there, which has nothing to do with Islam. Saddam Hussein has never even offered an
Eid namaaz in his entire life time, attacks Kuwait and clicks a self portrait where he is offering
namaaz in the desert and on his own flag immediately writes the saying - '
La ilaha il allah, Mohammedan Rasul allah'. Every Muslim in the world goes crazy over him. I do not understand why if such a thing can happen, then what is wrong when
Sangh Parivaar does it, when Bajrang Dal does it? If the permission for the religion of majority to exist is granted, and if they want to impose their beliefs, their understanding on the whole system. Sajid Rashid if is born in Islam and is a Muslim by birth, then you will want to sit on my head, if you tell me that you all won't let me live, the way I am living. Then I will oppose it. I have a right to oppose it to an extent that any individual has to live according to his religion.
What I want to say is, that we don't have to go far in the protest against America. I was listening to it and was hurt that Ram Punyani did not, even once, condemn Osama Bin Laden. I do condemn America, I am ready to go out on streets to condemn America, I am ready to sacrifice my blood, I am ready to block the roads. If you want me to fight on the border front, I am ready for it. But before all this I condemn people like Osama Bin Laden.
Masalewala Hall, Dongri, Mumbai, India
Sajid Rashid draws parallels between Saddam Hussein and
Sangh Parivaar and accuses them of providing terrorism with religious identity. He also finds fault with the fact that Ram Punyani appeared to empathise with Osama Bin Laden in his condemnation of America. Rashid states that while he condemns America, it does not stop him from condemning the actions of Bin Laden either - both are at fault.
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I don't understand you all. We all say it together, that around the world there are protest against America, the culture of America. America wants to consume us. This shirt, these pants, these shoes, whose culture is this? Pardon me, but let me say that if English culture had gone to Afghanistan, then this situation would not have risen in Afghanistan whereby they are behind by fifteen hundred years... and want to take the time back by three hundred years! I have no concern for the Taliban, I have no concern for Rashid Dostam, I have no concern for (?), I have no concern for Musharraf. If at all I have concern, I am concerned about the kids of Afghanistan. I am concerned for those innocent girls, those women who don't have anybody to be concerned about them, those who are treated like cattle or sheep. Please, for god's sake, do think of them. If this is
jihad, then
jihad means that every person who is able, who can fight, should join the
jihad.
I don't understand that twenty-five lac people are at the Pakistan border taking refuge, stating 'open this border, let us save our lives.' If this is
jihad, then why don't these twenty-five lac people go and join Taliban and fight together? I don't understand why none of us can can think of this.
Masalewala Hall, Dongri, Mumbai, India
Sajid Rashid discusses the nature of
jihad. He appears to conclude that the current situation is not that of
jihad merely because it has been declared so, as the nation's people have to be willing to follow along under that banner. Rashid states that his concern is not for the Taliban, or for Abdul Rashid Dostam, the previous general and Chief of Staff to the Commander in Chief of the Afghan National Army, and the then principal leader of Afghanistan's Uzbek community, but more for the women and female children in Afghan society.
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And if at all it is
jihad, then why is there a need for Afghanistan's Taliban to say that whoever leaves this place will be shot? It means that forcefully, with force, they want to tie up the whole community in the system. And that too, the system which has been imposed on by Pakistan is the system imposed by America on Russia. Whatever is happening with America, is bound to happen. It's instinctive. It's the law of nature. Sheikh Abdel-Rahman, who is blind and cannot see, was fed by America. The same Sheikh Abdel-Rahman had planned the conspiracy of the World Trade Centre bombings (1993). The terrorists in Kashmir - pardon me, but I will even go to that extent - are because of America. Why doesn't America say anything against them? Because America somewhere needs an issue, in Mumbai language, it needs a
lafda (an issue), a fight to create tension, to create stress. When there is stress and tension then... What is America's economy? What does America sell? Let me tell you, I had gone to America. When I was out on the streets of New York thinking of buying something for my friends, I couldn't find anything that was tagged 'Made in America.' I was distressed. Then I bought a watch, an alarm, which winds on key, which now rests in my house. Only on that it was written 'Made in America'. What does it sell? It sells arms and ammunition, it sells borders, it breaks borders, it sells (?), it sells barbed wires, it sells bullets, and after all these, it sends aid and UNO to us.
Masalewala Hall, Dongri, Mumbai, India
Sajid Rashid discusses the fact that the declaration of
jihad has created a stress-filled issue, one that he claims has been brought about either directly or indirectly by America itself in order to promote the American economy of arms and ammunition. He cites possible precedents in the cases of Sheikh Omar Abdel-Rahman, accused of being the leader of Egypt's Al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya (a.k.a. 'The Islamic Group'), and the terrorist attacks in Kashmir.
America
Kashmir
Mumbai
Pakistan
Sheikh Abdul-Rahman
Taliban
UNO
World Trade Centre
conspiracy
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Masalewala Hall, Dongri, Mumbai, India
Sajid Rashid discusses his fears on the growing aspect of communalism as expressed by Bajrang Dal, the youth wing of the Vishwa Hindu Parishad, the Taliban, and S.I.M.I., the Students Islamic Movement of India. He mentions the inaction involved in merely discussing events while they happen, and draws attention to the danger inherent in religious terrorism, citing the example of Indira Gandhi and her assassination by two of her own Sikh bodyguards in the aftermath of Operation Blue Star on the 31st of October, 1984.
We all know of this. Today my biggest concern is the extreme of communalism. The extreme of communalism is Bajrang Dal, the extreme of communalism is Taliban, the extreme of communalism is (?), the extreme of communalism is SIMI, S.I.M.I. We kept talking about the democratic system. This should happen in a democracy. If a man comes and starts beating me up, you all will say 'stop and let's call the police', 'no, no we can't beat him, this is not our religion', 'we can't beat him, this is wrong', 'we can't beat him, let's call the police.' By that time he will kill me. I don't believe in this. If you all believe, do so, I am not forcing you. All of what is happening is happening in the same way. For the last ten years, seven years, atrocities are being committed on the women in Afghanistan. I ask you all, how many meetings did we call? How many condemned it? I ask you all that question. Religious terrorism is the most dangerous form of terrorism. It was this religious terrorism that made the two Sikh bodyguards of Indira Gandhi take an oath in the Golden Temple, made them wear the 'kada', gave them holy water, and told them that when you die, you will reach heaven. And when they were firing, they weren't aiming at Indira Gandhi, they were aiming for heaven - one-heaven, two-heaven, three-heaven. All they could see was heaven.
Bajrang Dal
Golden Temple
Indira Gandhi
SIMI
Sikh
Taliban
atrocities
communalism
condemn
democratic
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terrorism
Masalewala Hall, Dongri, Mumbai, India
Sajid Rashid discusses the fact that religious terrorism relies upon the lure of heaven in order to entice its followers. Moreover, he denies the fact that religious terrorism is not to be equated with the theoretical structure it arises from, although the fallout from this association will have to be borne by the common man. He also makes reference to Edward Said's book
Covering Islam [Said, Edward,
Covering Islam (Vintage Books, 1997)].
For those who wish to further explore the types of
jihad and its links with the law can do so by accessing Hilmi M. Zawati's article 'Is
Jihad a Just War? War, Peace and Human Rights Under Islamic and Public International Law', published in The American Journal of International Law -
http://www.jstor.org/pss/3070708
When Islamic terrorism happens... Did you all read Mohammed Attah's last five points, the points he wrote on the last night, which he wrote before he died, which he wrote before the attacks? He wished for heaven, he felt that he was going to heaven. This is a dangerous thing. When there is heaven, there is an extreme in religion, there is (?) in religion, at that time a person can't think logically, be it Hindu religion, be it Christianity or be it Islam. This is a wrong argument that Islam is a religion of peace, is a religion of truces. It's a wrong argument, it's a theoretical argument. We know what had happened in past hundred years, we also know what had happened in past thirty years. Yes, it's very bad what is being said and what is being done. There is nothing like Islamic terrorism. But I need to know from you all, when Bajrang Dal does something, don't we say it's Hindu terrorism? We do say. Those people who hijack in the name of Islam, those people who create chaos in the name of Islam, those who create violence in the name of Islam, and then tell that it is the
jihad of Islam. What else will you call it other than Islamic terrorism and Muslim terrorism? I have bought the list with me. And Edward Said, about whom you provided context, has written a book 'Covering Islam' in which he argues that whatever is happening in this world is Islamic terrorism and it is a sad thing that the great loss of this will be borne by the common Muslim.
Bajrang Dal
Christianity
Edward Said
Hindu
Islam
Mohammed Attah
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terrorism
Masalewala Hall, Dongri, Mumbai, India
Sajid Rashid discusses the fact that the now present correlation between Islam and terrorism saddens him. However, he maintains that both, America as well as the terrorists remain equally to blame. Rashid goes on to state that he agrees with Ram Punyani's assertions (despite having contradicted it at various points during his own speech) and states that while Islamic terrorism did not exist previously, it is being brought into existence in the present due to these actions.
The spirit of Islam is being tarnished. I feel sad about it. I feel excessively sad that Islam is being projected in the wrong light. And nobody in the world cares that Islam is being projected in a negative way. This is of great regret. Nobody is sad. And when we are shown our mistakes, we start pointing at others, that even they did it. I ask you, if you have murdered someone and knowing that in the neighbourhood someone else had been murdered but the killer is not yet apprehended, do you think and feel that the police and the system will let you go just because there is another killer is roaming free? If you all think like it, then you're thinking... (not audible).
What I want to say is that I don't want to speak excessively on the issue of America. However, Mr. Ram has spoken on the same in expanse, and I am in complete agreement with what he had said. But I even want to say that there is nothing like Islamic terrorism, but Islamic terrorism is being created. I ask you whether Bin Laden had said it clearly, that from today onwards, Muslims in the world... (footage cuts).
America
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How long will this go on? ...How old were the kids, who wrote slogans on the walls against Mohammed. When are we going to come together to talk against this? (Islamic fundamentalism) I was told that Osama bin Laden wasn't the subject of this talk, neither were we talking about the Taliban... I was told that these cannot be the topic of discussion.
I don't understand, if Osama Bin Laden doesn't exist then does America exist, and if America exists then why is it so? Lets take a look at Saudi Arabia. If you want to oppose, then oppose the rogue kings, the Muslim kings that helped America, gave America sanctuary. If Saddam Hussein was helped by the Americans, he was also given a chance to attack Kuwait. All of this was a big conspiracy, because if Saddam attacks Kuwait then America gets a great target to sell weapons to the Arab nations who are sitting idle. Also Palestine's war has cooled off because of Yasser Arafat's old age... So now lets start something new.
17 years ago... You should be knowing this... None of the Urdu papers covered it... 17 years back, Saudi Arabia had made a deal with America that, when there will be fights among parishes, there will be Muslims all over the world to protect the Kaaba, but you (America) protect the Royal Kingdom. This sort of agreement has been signed. If America does anything, it does in reference to the same agreement. When America had their planes landed in Kuwait or in Saudi Arabia... they were welcomed with a grandeur, saying save our lives. The citizens do not support them, but the government out there supports them. So what are you going to do about it? Who will speak against the monarchy out there? America is the reason for the rise of the worlds worst dictators, and is also a lunatic asylum for the world's coward dictators. We all known to this fact.
What I'm trying to say is that when we are opposing America we should also oppose the ones responsible for all these wars. And remember that only in the name of religion do religious people get stronger, because of which a Crusade starts... a
Jihad starts... and
Dharm Sangram(Religious War) starts. The Hindutva forces are trying to do that here, they are trying hard... people like you are trying to stop them. But please, help us too. Do not spread such talk that will benefit them. Thank you.
Jai Hind.
Masalewala Hall, Dongri, Mumbai India
Sajid Rashid makes mention of opposing both, America and other organizations which are responsible for the war.
America
Hindutva
Jihad
Kaaba
Kuwait
Mohammed
Osama bin Laden
Saddam Hussein
Saudi Arabia
Taliban
Yasser Arafat
dictator
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A coin has just two sides and both are present here today. They, however, are having a few problems in making their points clear. But still, I want to carry forward the points made by Sajid
bhai and Ram. I agree to what Sajid
bhai said that we in these times, when we talk about America and prove it wrong, along with that we should resist against what the Taliban and other such fundamentalist organizations do. I agree. I also agree that working against terrorism is important. But agreeing to this point I would turn back to some pages in history.
50 years back, in 1945, in the Hiroshima and Nagasaki blasts, many civilians were killed instead of soldiers. Who bombed these places? It was none of the Islamic nations. America was responsible for these blasts.Then in 1951, there was a conflict in Korea. This conflict was not caused by Afghanistan or Pakistan but by America. A revolution broke out in Cuba in 1959-60. Sudan or Libya weren't trying to ruin the revolution. It was America who was trying to ruin it by sending in their armies. Then, in Indonesia 10 lakh people were brutally killed. The list of the people to be killed was not given by Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan, but by America. Then when we look at Vietnam, in Operation Phoenix, 50 thousand civilians were killed. Who was responsible for these killings? Was it Iran or Pakistan? No, because it was America who was responsible for these atrocities.
Lets go a little further in time. In 1973, in Chile, a democratically chosen government led by Allende was replaced by a military dictatorship led by General Pinochet. This was also attributed to the American government and not any other Islamic government.
In Nicaragua, in 1978-79 and the eighties, who tried to break the government elected by the people? It was none other but again America, who was responsible.
America was also responsible for the frequent bombings in Iraq. Saddam Hussein, who was once reared by America, is now being attacked by the same American nation since the last 60 years. Approximately 5 lakh children were killed in these bombings. When the Secretary of State was questioned about these killings caused due to the war in Iraq, she responded saying that these mishaps keep on happening and that we have to think of the long term aspects. Similarly, we can say the same when it comes to the World Trade Centre attacks as these mishaps keep on happening. They keep on happening. Its a war, of course these things will happen. Well, I shed no tears when the World Trade Centre came crashing down...
Masalewala Hall, Dongri, Mumbai India
Mihir Desai, an advocate and the Honorary Director of the ICHRL, discusses the incidents of terrorism which he attributes to events set in motion by America, rather than Islamic nations.
Mihir Desai is a well-known human rights activist and lawyer practising in the Bombay High Court and Supreme Court. He co-founded the India Centre for Human Rights and Law - a Mumbai-based non-governmental organization. He is known particularly for his representation of the victims in the famous Best Bakery case. More information about Mr Desai can be located at
http://www.zoominfo.com/people/Desai_Mihir_144649884.aspx
Afghanistan
Allende
America
Centre
Chile
Cuba
Hiroshima
Iraq
Islamic
Korea
Libya
Nagasaki
Operation Phoenix
Pakistan
Pinochet
Ram
Saddam Hussein
Sajid
Sudan
Taliban
Trade
World
atrocities
conflict
fundamentalist
government
revolution
terrorism
war
Masalewala Hall, Dongri, Mumbai India
Mihir Desai is exploring the vested economic and political interests of America. He believes that it is these interests that lead them into conflict with other nations. He also mentions his fears regarding the new laws that have been implemented in America in the wake of 9/11.
More information regarding these new laws and their effects can be found in the article titled '9/11 Law Means More Snooping? Or Maybe Less? ' by Patricia Cohen in The New York Times, dated September7, 2002.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C07E3D8133EF934A3575AC0A9649C8B63
...if America cannot profit from any of it then it does not attack. If Nicaragua and Chile nationalise their oil refineries, then America decides to attack on these nations. If Cuba removes the American people working in the sugar plantations, then they are attacked by America. One should realise that America attacks only for the vested interests in their economic policies, and that these attacks are religious attacks. And hence, they happen at a less rate.
Then they give it the name of religion, like Islamic Terrorism, Islamic Fundamentalism. But when they attack, it completely depends on their economic interests... where their economic policies leads them.
So, that is why, when we go against, or speak against America, or protest against them... to us it is important to not use the name of religion to go against them. Because, whether he is a Muslim, a Hindu, or a Christian; who ever is poor, or living in a under developed country or in the Third World Nations, is affected by the American economic policies.
In South Africa many people suffer from AIDS, similar situation in India too. American firms said that they were ready to sell the medicines for AIDS at rupees 1 lac, whereas an Indian firm were ready to do the same for one thousand and five hundred rupees. Immediately the American firms pressured the Indian firm, Cipla, to close the deal. At the same time they also pressured the South African government to reject the deal with the Indian firm. That is what has happened in several places.
Gujarat had an earthquake in which many people were killed and when the Gujarat government tried securing a loan from the world bank. The World Bank made a few clauses. These clauses stated that the houses that would be built should be made with cement and steal, which should be bought from the companies that they will recommend, and they recommended a list of American companies. In North Gujarat and Saurashtra, if you plan to built a house with cement, you'll require water. Without water you cannot built a cement house. Water is scarcely found in these places. But the World Bank is making the availability of the loan, which our politicians are benefiting in some ways, in such a way that you end up buying the steal and cement from the American companies. So every time a loan or any other grant is made available, it is some way or the other attached with the American policies. So this is an important point that we should keep notice of.
Second point that we should keep a notice of is what is happening in the name of this (terrorism) in our country. In America, after September 11, there have been four to five new laws that are being thought of implementing. Such as phone tapping that was earlier illegal, is now being legalised. The second thing is to legalise spying on neighbours. The third thing is that 700 people are in the American prison, not because they were involved in the September 11 blasts, but because it was assumed that they knew about how it occurred or whether they probably knew the people involved. Out of those seven hundred there's not a single person against whom there's a charge of being involved, but still they have been in the prison since a month. Such laws are being implemented in America.
The same way in India, the ban of S.I.M.I. didn't affect me much. Just like the collapse of the World Trade Centre attacks, with the ban of S.I.M.I., I shed no tears. But when did this happen? This (the ban of S.I.M.I.) happened with the rise of terrorism. Two DGP's, Maharashtra's DIG and Madhya Pradesh's DIG, both recommended the central government to ban S.I.M.I. On that recommendation the ban on S.I.M.I. was implemented. There were two things that they recommended. They recommended that a ban on S.I.M.I. as well as Bajrang Dal should be implemented. But the ban was only implemented on SIMI, leaving Bajrang Dal free.
In 7 to 10 days there is a new law, just like TADA, that is going to be implemented. Even you have noticed that laws cannot help with the fight against terrorism. TADA was there for 15 years, and after 15 years the government felt that it was of no use. Most of the people imprisoned with the TADA act were people who protested against the hike in milk prices in Gujarat. So such people were accused and prisoned using the TADA act. Terrorism was not much affected by this act. But this way, there was a rise in terrorism and so, to stop terrorism a new law is being implemented instead of TADA. And this new law is probably going to be used against people who demonstrate against the attacks made on America or even on the Taliban.
Four days back, in Delhi, 40 people were arrested because they demonstrated against America, that they should stop the war, that they should stop the fight...
AIDS
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ban
bank
earthquake
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legalise
oil
policies
politicians
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Masalewala Hall, Dongri, Mumbai India
Mihir Desai criticises America for its own acts of terrorism against less developed nations. He also makes mention of the fact that in order for the revolt against America to be successful, it must be independent of religion.
... so in this sense, our government will try implementing new laws and policies, and we should act against it. Because this fight is not just at the international level, but also in our country... With this excuse, new laws will be implemented, and hence, it will crush any sort of people's struggle and resistance. So it is needed to fight against all of this and just as Afghanistan and America, equal attention should be given to this, about what is happening to the country, in what way the law is being implemented and how is it affecting people.
All I have to say is that if we have to fight terrorism then we have to fight against the biggest terror, America. I'm not saying that we should not fight against other terrors or terrorists. But America, which has been the biggest terror through out history, we'll surely have to fight against it...
My second point is that we should not revolt against America on the basis of religion, because America fights on the basis of their economic interests and not on the basis of religion.
... just as America uses its vested interest in the economic policies, we should identify those interests and fight against it. Would just like to say this much... Thank you very much.
Afghanistan
America
economic
government
interests
laws
policies
religion
revolt
struggle
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Masalewala Hall, Dongri, Mumbai India
Shakeel Ahmed gives the vote of thanks and introduces Ram Punyani once more.
...I would like to thank Mihir for enlightening us about the bad deeds of America in terms of spreading terrorism. Now we will have an open discussion wherein your questions would be answered and your opinions could be made. But before that, Ram Punyani has a few words to say in debate to what Sajid Rashid first said.
America
Mihir
Ram Punyani
Sajid Rashid
discussion
terrorism
Masalewala Hall, Dongri, Mumbai India
Ram Punyani attempts to clarify his previous point with regard to his perceived lack of condemnation for the Taliban or Osama Bin Laden. He also reiterates his stance against bigotry.
Sajid
bhai, I don't think we would need to argue with each other after this. I couldn't put my point across clearly because of which you thought that I was sympathetic towards the Taliban. Well, the question is that... religion based politics and race based politics, I'm completely against both these things, which I never had to think about it. The question out here is that in today's situation, can the American attacks stop powers like the Taliban? This is the question that is set in front of me. The question not whether the Taliban is right or wrong. The question... Taliban shouldn't be there, nor should religion based politics, or the Bajrang Dal, or the
Mullahs from Pakistan or, any kind of such powers shouldn't exist in the world. For this, I don't even need to think for a second or a millimetre. But, can the American attacks stop big powers like the Taliban?
When a nation attacks another nation, the bigoted (
Dharmaandh - blinded by faith) people of the attacked nation become much more stronger, this is what I think. After the 1992-93 riots, the bigotry of Muslim people didn't reduce. Because of which fear was instilled in them and there was a 5 millimetre increase of bigotry in them. There was no reduction in that. How and why does this bigotry takes place, and how to deal with it is another individual issue. But can American attacks stop any sort of bigotry? I will never agree with that being possible. To stop such bigotry, the processes inside the society, the process of secularisation, the process of (?) of religion, democratisation process... This might sound theoretical and abstract, but this is the only solution for powers like the Taliban to be buried six feet underground. American attacks, in different forms, can only give encouragement to such powers. It cannot do anything other than that. So don't misunderstand me like you misunderstood my... I would like to thank you for saying that I'm trying to fight the issue of bigotry in the Hindu religion, and for all the strength and support that you will need to fight the issue of bigotry in Islamic religion. All I would like to say is that we will be with you.
1992-93 riots
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attacks
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democratisation
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Masalewala Hall, Dongri, Mumbai India
Shakeel Ahmed gives the vote of thanks and invites opinions from the crowd.
Thank you Ram. I now hope that you will start writing about Muslim fundamentalists.
Now, if you have any questions or opinions, you can come forward to the podium and talk about it in short. And the panel will reply to it.
Muslim
fundamentalists
opinions
Feroze Mithiborwala discusses globalisation in the context of the 'clash of civilizations,' and criticises the Taliban for perverting Islam.
Masalewala Hall, Dongri, Mumbai India
September 11... Can you hear me right? Because of which there was a change in the world, a change in agendas, and there will also be a change with opinions and circumstances. The problem out here is that, what Sajid
bhai said, with respect and understanding sentiments. And the problem is that what Sajid
bhai has been saying for the past 20 years has not been taken seriously by the Central government. I would like to to tell Sajid
bhai that religions have changed, everything has changed, but what you are saying was right 20 years back. Now things have changed.
(Sajid Rashid: One moment, Feroz, please explain how everything has changed... if I start explaining, I'm quite slow, so I might take time... and everybody has to sit because I'll close the door and for an hour I won't let anybody leave.)
Yes, yes, certainly, because without that debate we wont be able to continue because a few progressive Muslim intellectuals stand by us, leaving out the whole community.
The 'clash of civilisation' is a very racist and fascist ideology. The 'clash of civilisation', this theory, is made to hide the questions that come across in class struggle and Globalisation. What is Globalisation in reality? Globalisation is the process of integration of capital. There is an integration of the global capital and along with that, in every country, there is an integration of the capitalist class. Musharraf, the Sangh Parivar, Israel and Russia are all together in this. The elite capitalist class from all around the world come together in this process. This led to the disintegration of the working class. On one side we have the integration of the capitalist class and on the other side we have the disintegration of the working class. So who will stand with us, who will fight with us? As far as this country's situation goes, there hasn't been a cast analysis of this situation. The productive community out here, of the majority who are skilled, will be our base for fighting this(reference?). And, on the other side, the Muslim productive community, of the majority, will be the base of that (reference?) fight.
Bamiyan was another defining moment. We were the first to go against Taliban, and we will continue to do that till we die. This is because the Taliban is a perversion of Islam, and whether it is the Taliban or the S.I.M.I., both are fringe elements, and the day when the S.I.M.I. was banned, no one in the community cried, nor was anyone against it. forget (?), but there were no demonstrations nor any protest. The Taliban is isolated in all the Islamic nations. The nations, like Saudi Arabia, UAE and Pakistan, that supported the Taliban are American allies. Hence the Taliban was always isolated among the Islamic nations.
What I'm trying to say is that don't consider the Muslim masses as herds of sheep...
Bamiyan
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Musharraf
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Russia
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disintegration
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ideology
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Feroze Mithiborwala slates the Communists, Marxists and
Sangh Parivar, and discusses the changes that have taken place in Afghanistan.
Masalewala Hall, Dongri, Mumbai India
...The second thing is that, (?) spoke about Afghanistan and the Soviet Union. Firstly, I should say that the Communists and the Marxists should ask forgiveness from the Muslim people because in Central Asia, the Marxists have broken twenty five thousand mosques out of twenty six thousand, which the
Sangh Parivar will not be able to achieve in the next seven generations. During King Zahir Shah's tenure there were schools and colleges in Afghanistan, education was allowed for women also... Dawood has been placed in exile specifically on the basis of the Indian government... what Indian history, is in South Asia....
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Zahir Shah
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Feroze Mithiborwala lays emphasis on the brutalisation of Afghanistan over the past centuries, and discusses the significance of any attacks made on the World Trade Centre and the Pentagon.
Masalewala Hall, Dongri, Mumbai India
...and this process will be two hundred years of brutalisation of Afghanistan. The British came, the Soviet Russians came, whereby Communism started forming. And after that the Americans came... Two hundred years of the brutalisation of Afghan society has created monsters like Taliban, understand that part. It is not a normal society. Normal things come out from a normal societies, and from violent societies come out such organisations like the Taliban. (?) are the consequences of a Capitalist ideology.
So why are the Muslim masses coming on the streets all over the world? Are they demonstrating because Osama Bin Laden said that women should be made to wear burqas, or women shouldn't have the right to education? Or are they coming because they feel that the Taliban is right? Are these the reasons for which the Muslim masses, from Indonesia to Algeria, are demonstrating on the streets. As far as I know they aren't demonstrating for these reasons.
Since the past 50 years... We talk about Vietnam, we forget about the Soviet... We talk about Hiroshima. We talk about Israel, its creation, for which both the Soviet Union and Israel were responsible at the UN, which is what both tend to forget. The creation of Israel was a colonial move to sabotage the Middle East. This was benefited by the Muslim league, the Arab league because of Israel's creation. Hold on the Muslim masses, let's create Israel an then talk of democracy. The Muslim masses noticed that the World Trade Centre incident was a symbol for economic hegemony. The attack on the Pentagon was a symbol of military hegemony. If the attack would have been on the White House or Camp David, it would have been a symbol for political hegemony. But the Statue of Liberty was not broken, the Statue of Liberty was not attacked. When we first wrote it, we were asked what were we talking about...
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Hiroshima
Israel
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Vietnam
brutalisation
ideologies
process
sabotage
Feroze Mithiborwala discusses his views on war, the brutalization of the Muslim masses, and the role of religion in the society.
Masalewala Hall, Dongri, Mumbai India
What is it if not a war? Israel's attack on Palestine, if it isn't war then what is it? Israel's attack on Lebanon during the 1980's, in Sabra and Shatila, when Ariel Sharon was the defence minister of Israel, that led to the death of ten thousand men and women and then were the meetings conducted here. If that wasn't war then what was it? The brutalisation of the Muslim masses in West Asia and Middle East are the consequences of the combination of Arab elite, America and Israel. Hence Osama Bin Laden isn't important for me. Since the start I was against the Taliban and I'll continue to do so. The Muslim world was against the Taliban and it still continues to do so. That is why the Taliban is isolated. But the reason behind the Muslim masses demonstrating on the streets is because... The Muslim masses are not a bunch of bullocks, they are not cattle, they are not a bunch of sheep... They have no particular understanding of the whole situation.
The last part, which is the most important point for me... Before and after September 11, what we were thinking of then. Few points that I need to bring forth in front of you is that the role of religion today... the role of religion earlier was a revolutionary role - religion is there to create an equated society, whether it was Jesus or Buddha or Prophet Muhammad, they came to our society with the message of equality. And that understanding of religion in terms of equality, the one used to revolutionise, is what we need to bring along if we have to stop the Taliban... if we need to understand religion in the right way. Is religion only a set of prayers and rituals? - This is what our older generation Marxist, not Marx in particular but Marxist, used to think. Was it right way to understand religion? So what is religion if not a set of practice and rituals? If religion is a social force, then what are its ideological parameters? What is the relation between religion and democracy? Does Islam have seeds which reject Democracy, or does the relationship between Islam and Democracy have a deep relation?
1980
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Jesus
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Shatila
brutalisation
democracy
equality
religion
war
Feroze Mithiborwala attempts to interpret religion's links to democracy,
jihad, and people's spiritual and material evolution.
Masalewala Hall, Dongri, Mumbai India
...to link social justice with
jihad, to link the fight for Democracy with
jihad. I believe this interpretation of religion should be put forth. And finally I'd like to conclude with the talk about larger
jihad, the talk about spiritual interpretation, will be on the basis of the future democratic society and every person's material or spiritual evolution.
Democracy
interpretation
jihad
justice
religion
society
spiritual
Masalewala Hall, Dongri, Mumbai India
Sagar Sarhadi, a popular Indian script-writer and film director, gives his views on Bajrang Dal, the BJP, the Taliban and condemning America.
Sagar Sarhadi's filmography can be viewed at
http://in.movies.yahoo.com/artists/Sagar-Sarhadi/filmography-12843.html
(?).. The issue that we are discussing today is very entangled. This is international politics. The three speakers out here have put forward their opinions about this issue, all of their opinions are different. But still we couldn't completely understand the situation. My friend out here, the courage in the way he spoke, Mr. Rashid, the issue which he spoke about is a problematic. How many articles we must have read, we still haven't figured that what kind of a community is Taliban. Fascist powers end up being successful in places where religion is already existing. This we need to understand. Take a look at your land, how is your land? In our situation there were many calamities, many blasts happened. When the bomb blasts took place, then there were daily conferences and talks. During these conferences, at the start 10, 20, 25, 50 people used to come for it. But slowly and steadily the numbers went down. And the people who were attacked started taking refuge in the mosques and Madrassas. And this why the Bajrag Dal formed to existence, and so is the BJP overpowering us. If the Taliban was along with powers, the political jurisdiction and politically progressive, then the world would have supported them and not gone against them. We need to understand this. If you want the fight against fascism, against the American attacks, you cannot do it with religion as refuge, or by being strict with your women, or by sending your children to Madrassas, or by attacking them or working in hiding. Always remember that these kind of powers exist. Why couldn't America defeat Cuba? It always wanted to, it is a super power, Cuba is such a small country. Because the (?) in Cuba are healthy. So we, a start has been made. It's a request, that a start has been made. Sajid has spoken, Ram
saab has spoken. Ram
saab has definitely made a mistake. Ram
saab has just pointed out one aspect of the issue, he did not show us the other aspect. I wanted to hear it, I wanted the people who are intelligent, make us understand that why did Taliban took birth. America went there to fight during the cold war against Russia, and created Taliban. Hence Taliban was born. Why don't you condemn this? You condemn America, but you don't condemn those powers who are the victims. America has control over Pakistan and Pakistan is being its victim. You speak of America but why don't you speak of Pakistan? Why is it (Pakistan) the victim? Why can't it fight? Why can't it be dependent on itself? Why isn't it increasing it's power? Our home land will become weaker. Whenever we try to take refuge in religion, we will go backwards. (?). The three speakers here have kept their views, but we don't have to react in a confused state. We need to hope that the Muslim will be democratic. We need to hope that it will associate itself to (?). We need to hope that it will join other organisations like this. Only then we can accomplish what is Ram
saab dream. It can only be accomplished when we ourselves fight, being healthy, condemn such things. Only then can we be correct. Thank you.
America
BJP
Bajrag Dal
Cuba
Fascist
Madrassas
Pakistan
Ram
Russia
Sajid
Taliban
democratic
politics
progressive
war
Afghanistan
America
Fascism
Hinduism
Hindutva
I think the audience won't mind if I say something briefly. Just excuse me, okay? Strangely enough I found Rashid's presentation much more relevant than what I've heard from my old communism friends Ram and Mihir. Because, you see, Rashid is saying that the nature of the U.S. State, the U.S. military establishment is obvious to everyone. Which means we have decades and the whole catalogue of US sins is also clear. One doesn't need to repeat on that. What we have confronted by today is a unique phenomenon which we must try and grasp in some intellectual and political sense. How do we categorised regimes like the Taliban? And after all what is the Taliban? It is what the
Sangh Parivar wants in India. Only the religious equations would be different. The Taliban has realised in Afghanistan, with a narrative assistance perhaps, but not just a narrative assistance. What the
Sangh Parivar is trying to create in India, what regimes which I characterise as Religious Fascism.
Now that raises a question of religion. Why does religion as a language allow itself to be perverted in this way? My feeling is that, you know, when communalism began to impact in the Indian scene in a big way in the early nineties, one of the first responses from the progressive left and the kind of liberal left in countries like India was 'well there is a true religion, and what the
Sangh Parivar is representing as Hinduism and Hindutva is actually not the true religion.' There is a question of faith and there is a question of political religion which Hindutva represents. Now I am not sure about that. I think religion is sufficiently ambiguous to allow itself to be used as language in this way, and there is no point in trying to determine what is true and what is false. As far as what religion is concerned, it is being instrumentalised by fascists. The Nazis instrumentalised the language of power and race. Our modern day Nazis, the
Sangh Parivar, and the Taliban, and fascists through the world, are instrumentalising religion as a language because of its emotional resonances, its deep psychological resonances. It's a language of mass communication. So I feel what we've seen before, Taliban is Religious Fascism.
And, of course, America has played a crucial role in subsidising and financing the Al Qaeda network (?) Osama bin Laden. The Taliban is a creation of the Cold War. But remember it was the Russian occupation which spread land mines through that country. If so many children and so many human beings are maimed in Afghanistan today, it is largely a legacy of the Soviet occupation. Okay, and this shows you that you cannot have... and there is no battle between good and evil in real politics. The Americans went into... the Americans went in covert way in Afghanistan and supported the
Mujaheedin and created the sort of...
India
Jairus Banaji, a prominent author and independent scholar based in Mumbai, is drawing parallels between Taliban and the
Sangh Parivar. He discusses communism and religious fascism, laying emphasis on how the Nazis used power and race as instrumental to their language, and the fact that the Taliban and religious fundamentalists are doing the same with religion.
For a short interview with Jairus Banaji which details his political background and stance on fascism, refer to the May2006/ August 2006 issue of Lines Magazine.
http://www.lines-magazine.org/Art_May06_Aug06/jairus_short.htm
For a list of publications by Jairus Banaji, visit
http://www.allbookstores.com/author/Jairus_Banaji.html
Masalewala Hall, Dongri, Mumbai India
Mihir
Mujaheedin
Osama bin Laden
Ram
Rashid
Religious
Russian
Sangh Parivar
Soviet
Taliban
US
communalism
communism
Al Qaeda
Anglo-Saxon
Arab
Capitalism
Empire
Fundamentalism
Hardt
Imperialism
Islamic
Jairus Banaji speaks about Islamic Radicalism, Islamic Fundamentalism, Islamic Militancy, U.S. Imperialism, Western Capitalism, and of the theory of the 'clash of civilizations.'
Liberal
Masalewala Hall, Dongri, Mumbai India
Middle East
Militancy
Negri
Osama Bin Laden
Radicalism
Ram
Soviet
US
civilisations
clash
democracy
ideology
modernity
resonance
terror
...there's a Soviet agenda, etc. The issue for us is we do not have a language in which we communicate to people. Whatever word we use, it has no credibility with people. Ram calls it Democracy. What credibility does he have, what is the meaning of democracy? Does he have any emotional resonance, even in this audience let alone on wider scale? When you use a word, a value laden word like democracy, what does it communicate to you? Intellectually what does it communicate, and emotionally what does it communicate? And that is where I wanted to come to what is called Islamism, or Islamic Radicalism, or Islamic Fundamentalism, etc, etc. This a matter of language. But one thing is clear... That you cannot, I completely agree with you (?) the 'clash of civilizations', all that is all bogus. It is ideology. There is an ideological program there to construct the 'clash of civilisations.' But there is an essential moment of truth and you cannot live in denial. You cannot live in denial. The moment of truth is that, whatever you call it, Islamic Radicalism, Islamic Militancy, etc, it is not reducible to Western Capitalism. Whatever you say about it, it's not just an agent of US Imperialism. However much the U.S. has built up Osama Bin Laden and the Al Qaeda terror network. The ideology which appeals to millions of people, in several parts of the world and primarily in the Middle East and the Arab countries, is not a passive reflection of the western idea of Modernity. On the contrary, in a very interesting book published by Negri and Hardt recently called 'Empire', it is argued that Islamic Fundamentalism is essentially a post modernist critique of the idea of modernity as we know it, as identified with the west, identified with markets, identified with Liberal institutions, identified with democracy. Modernity in the Western American, Anglo-Saxon sense is being critiqued in the evolution of the Islamic Fundamentalism. So my question is, where are the alternatives in the Arab countries? The Left was desolated and destroyed by military dictatorships by the U.S., etc etc. There is no 'Left' left so to speak. Surviving in the Arab world today, where are the alternatives? Who is speaking the language which makes sense to the mass of people in these countries? Where are our alternatives to so called Islamic Radicalism? What is the point of saying that Islamic Radicalism equals Fundamentalism equals this that? It makes no sense. It has an emotional resonance which we do not understand and, I think, a large part of resonance is that they are not reducible to U.S. agenda. They are independent and autonomous from the U.S. agenda and that is its appeal for a lot of people. Precisely the kind of role that the secular nationalist or the internationalist Left played at one time, in the fifties and sixties vis-a-vis the massive population in these countries. It was an alternative polar attraction to Capitalism and to Western Capitalism. When the Left declined in the seventies and eighties, a vacuum developed. And that vacuum has been filled by these kind of religious ideologies which are also ideologies critical of western modernity. So 'clash of civilisation', fine. I can understand. But I'm saying there's a moment of truth there which we need to understand and we must not live in denial. Where are the political alternatives in the Arab countries?
Dharavi-based activist, Bhao Korde, discusses slum areas like Dharavi being neglected in terms of organising discussion panels, as compared to the discussion panel being held in Dongri. The speaker is also concerned with the inaction of such panels, as well as the funding for NGOs arising from NATO.
Korde's work in Dharavi, along with that of his friend and associate, Waqar Khan is explored in the film '
NAATA: The Bond' (2003, directed by K.P. Jayasankar and Anjali Monteiro.)
http://209.85.129.132/search?q=cache:WbUGfquA3WYJ:cmcs.tiss.edu/downloads/PressKit_Naata.pdf+%22bhau+korde%22&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=in&client=firefox-a provides more information on the film itself.
For more information on Dharavi, one can refer to
http://dharavi.org/
Masalewala Hall, Dongri, Mumbai India
America
As I am standing in front of you - what is Taliban? What is America? What's happening around the world? - I have nothing to say about that. I came for this meeting because I thought that I'll get to listen to something new and increase my knowledge and that is why I came here, I heard a lot of things. The talks that happen out here, the we need to built a platform, we need to do this and that. (?), I'm astonished by the fact that people we talk about aren't present here. I have been observing it for a while now. Even now the talk that took place here about those people, but none of them are here. And everyone, as much I know, pardon me, as much of history I know, as much about the world and what had happened. That is why I'm here. I know that nothing (?).
Now we just spoke about the platform. Since 1994 I have been hearing talks about having a platform here. In Mumbai after the riots, many seminars took place for which lacs of rupees have been spent. But till now a platform hasn't been created. And now with lot of pain I'd like to tell you that I have been living in Dharavi, I have seen the riots there and when I come for such meetings and seminars, I feel as if you all are trying to poke fun at us. You all have never come to our side. You have never felt our pain, our problems that we face there; till date nobody among you all have come there and seen it. Nor anybody among youl have had in life to endure something. We have seen it. So every time I was curious about 'what is this? What are all these seminars? And what is it all about?' And that is the reason I am here today, I wanted to hear it. But even then I have to say something, that I have come here. When I would be asked that you went there, what you heard, at least I will be able to say that I have heard all these big people and have told them about our plight, asked them to also look at us sometime. Now there was a talk on culture, culture is here as of now. Mumbai has, India has a culture. These all are cultured people. We are foreign, Taliban, we live there in Dharavi. Culture is here, we are there, but culture is also here.
A lot has been said about America here, lot has been said by the people. But, amongst you all, a lot of people have feeling of hatred for America. There are still many of us , when in private, say that my nephew is in California, my this is in San Francisco, my this, my that. Everything is said until up on this stage. In my neighbourhood Sajid Rashid hasn't come, Ram Punyani hasn't come. I listen to Ram Punyani over here, I have been listening to Sajid Rashid for sometime now, the way he said I am very happy. I would like to invite him to Dharavi sometime, but (?). But, this, this should be occasionally considered about, this (?) had happened, the talk on platform happened. And it is not that these things do not happen. If among you all, any person, even little, went to the slums, went to the chawls and did some little work, you do get the results of it.
I would like to say one thing about Dharavi. A S.I.M.I. person was caught by the Muslims in Dharavi two and a half years back and was handed over to the police. There was no mention of that person's name anywhere. The police station had let that person free. What are you doing? Two and a half years back. And when they had a meeting of Muslims, that such things should not be given progression. And if such people living in these parish, will you ever be going to meet them? Or that, that culture, your culture, our culture is different and will remain the same? And even then I want to say that in my Dharavi after riots, the
mohalla (community) committee work that had happened, happened the most in Dharavi. An illiterate man over there, the history which was spoken of, the big talks that took place, most of which I wasn't able to understand, one of my man who stitches shirts made a poster of '
Hum Sab Ek Hai' ( We all are one). I think some of you all would have seen it, I think even here there is one poster. That poster was made by a Muslim person, educated only till seventh standard, but after seeing the riots the thought which came to his mind and he made a poster of it. And till date, the police department uses that poster every year. Every year thousands of copies of that poster are made. Will we ever reach out to such people? We all know that. Till now whatever the panel had said, everybody already knew what they would be talking about. It's not as if you all heard something new. I heard something new because I didn't know about it. But when will these talks be taken out of this hall seriously needs to be considered. Otherwise such seminars will keep on happening a lot.
I will say something cutting out the negatives. There are NGOs, lot of money is generated, and the seminars conducted are very good. It's Okay. If you said or asked that whatever you said, what does it mean? As of now in Mumbai, in the whole of India, from where do the NGOs get their money? It comes from the NATO. They are all people from the NATO. Where does the money come from? Are people going to stop this?
Bhau Korde
California
Culture
Dharavi
Muslim
NATO
NGO
Ram Punyani
S.I.M.I.
Sajid Rashid
San Francisco
Taliban
police
riots
seminars
Masalewala Hall, Dongri, Mumbai India
As soon as Hasina Khan comes on the stage, the
azaan (call for
namaaz/ prayer) is heard in the background, and so everybody pauses for a while.
Masalewala Hall, Dongri, Mumbai India
Hasina Khan, a human rights activist and leader of
Awaaz-e-Niswaan (Voices of Women), provides her perspective on things said by Mihir Desai, Ram Punyani and Sajid Rashid. She also mentions the atrocities committed upon women in the name of religion, the effects of religious terrorism in India, the contribution of secularists, and religious fundamentalism. She also attempts to clarify the role and position of NGOs in India.
http://www.ajws.org/who_we_are/news/archives/features/turning_up_the_volume_on_womens_voices.html provides more information about
Awaaz-e-Niswan and on Hasina Khan herself.
Masalewala Hall, Dongri, Mumbai, India
The issues pointed out by the speakers. I see all the issues pointed out by the three speakers from my perspective and the different aspects of it. What Sajid Rashid has said about the minority, the Muslims in India, and its effects on our country which reaches to the minorities of Israel through the local Urdu newspapers is happening in a different way, in which the terrorism taking place in the country is being projected in the name of religion. And how it will effect on the people who are religious, and in that the women... Atrocities being committed on women, and how they are not allowed to work, they are begging on the streets but cannot work. This are the atrocities being committed by the Taliban government and the Taliban community. But we also need to remember its effects on our country. The way in which Feroz pointed out the issue that, leaders remain within, but the community is left out. And if we are talking about the leaders, we should not forget. Bukhari and the statement made by him that the Muslims of India should participate in the
jihad and the effect of that statement was seen in a village Sasuna near Pune where thirteen to fourteen Muslims by the people of Bajrang Dal because of the statement made by Bukhari. This way, the effect of a statement made by Bukhari could be seen in a small village, and how this effect is oppressed on an economic status. And this oppression, our
mullah's, our leaders who give speeches, and the community is left out. So, don't see us like the
mullah's and leaders who give speeches.
One gentleman was saying that NGOs take a lot of money and don't know what they do with it, there is no platform created after the riots. I would like to say to him that the place where he lives in Dharavi might have faced a problem due to the distance in communication. But all the organisations, they can be NGOs, autonomous groups, voluntary groups, all these groups have raised the issue differently. It may be an autonomous group, may be a human rights organisation or any other organisation working on various issues or on aspects of human rights, all of them have raised their voice on these issues. We also have to see that it is the only special organisations that have raised their voices on issues without any fear or any sort of apprehensions. I would like to talk about my organisation. For fifteen years we are working in such areas, challenging the Muslim Personal Law. And if we were able to do this only because we were a NGO. Had we been with a political party, we would not have been able to this. Had we joined S.I.M.I. or other such religious organisation, we would not have been able to talk on such issues. This was a social organisation and that is the reason it is still working, and is on this platform and dares to speak on issues in this area.
I would even like to talk on the way terrorism is happening in our country. We have for sure spoken opposing America. Today we are supporting Taliban, but we are not supporting Taliban because it is Muslim, that Afghanistan is a Muslim country. We are supporting because the community from Afghanistan, the civilians from Afghanistan are poor. It (war) can affect the children and women over there. Because war, if we say that fighting a war can stop terrorism, it cannot. Instead because of the war, the terrorism increases. And the way you all say that Osama Bin Laden is a terrorist; isn't Dawood Ebrahim a terrorist? Isn't S.I.M.I. organisation a terrorist? We also consider the women organisation in this area which speaks against women, as terrorist. We also consider that individual or the organisation in this country a terrorist, which speaks against human rights. Hence terrorist also has different aspects, and how we see it. The economic terrorism... a very powerful nation has entered our country. And I agree to what Ram Punyani has said that somewhere there is the issue of the controversy happening. I would also like to say this to Sajid Rashid that the way in which Ram Punyani, being out of the community, out of the minority community, and belonging to the majority community, has tried to express his anger through his speech. But even then, Ram Punyani's contribution, or people like Ram Punyani who are secular and are non Muslim, even their and Ram Punyani's contribution is evidently seen in the Sri Krishna commission report is one thing we should not forget.
So, I feel that Mr. Sagar has said a very good thing that such an environment being created and the discussion which is happening... it is right that we wont be able to bring out an intelligent classification or solution to this. But the environment that is being created needs to be understood. And whenever there is terrorism or any communal atmosphere in the surrounding, women are the one who are most and deeply affected by it. And the ways in which atrocities are being committed on women like in Srinagar, Lashkar-e-Jabbar said that women should strictly adhere to
burqa, even, at many places in Mumbai is is said that wearing
burqa is necessary. We also consider this as a part of terrorism.
I end my talk here. And we need to create an environment which is luscious and approachable and which makes the mind fresh. And what the organisation has organised here, has tried to give a secular approach in front of the people here, in front of the people who have come here. We are against, I can say that we are against Muslim fundamentalist, we are not against Muslim religion or any other Christian or Hindu religion. We are against such religion who spreads terror in the name of religion, which oppresses women in the name of religion, which in the name of religion tries to politicise issues while projecting it to the people, is what we need to understand. Thank You.
Bajrang Dal
Bukhari
Dawood Ebrahim
Dharavi
Lashkar-e-Jabbar
Muslim Personal Law
Ram Punyani
S.I.M.I.
Sajid Rashid
Sri Krishna commission
Taliban
fundamentalist
government
human rights
minority
religion
terrorism
A member of the audience discusses socialism with respect to the revolution in Russia, and its effect on the capitalist order.
Masalewala Hall, Dongri, Mumbai, India
Now that the discussion has went for too long. Many people have a lot to say but we call the final person up on the stage to put his point of view, after which the panel wants to speak for five minutes. Just two minutes. You have been called.
Who me?
Yes, anybody who wants to speak. Just for two minutes.
You all have been listening since six-thirty approximately, and have heard about a lot of things to worry and a lot of things to understand. I just want to put forward two points, just two minutes. The attack made by America on Afghanistan and the ideology behind it; we need to understand the ideology and it's effect on the future of India and hence our understanding will be clear and we can move forward with our duties. To make my point, I would like to take your attention to a time frame, forty-fifty years back, when revolution broke in Russia and socialism government came into power. It was a new revolution which was spreading to every nation in the world. The idea of socialism was spreading in the world, it was a new ideology that was spreading in the world. The message of socialism was that, all the nations in the world unite. This you all would have heard, you all would have seen But you all would have also seen that in all the nations, there were people believing in some or the other religion. The capitalist order of America, if it had witnessed the successful unification of these countries, then the capitalist order would not have been successful. Therefore the capitalist order kindled the devotion to the religion, which existed in the hearts of the people. That devotion towards religion was postured and highlighted by them. What it is today? Today the world has turned into religious fundamentalism, religious insanity. The Taliban is a product of the capitalist order. Whose product is religious fundamentalism? It is a product of the capitalist order. Today in our country if the Hindutva is being felicitated, it is due to the capitalist order. Today people belonging to RSS, people belonging to BJP, are the slaves of the capitalist order since birth. They have been praying to the capitalist order. Therefore, even in our country, people who favour America, this is their age-old ideology and it is harmful to us. People in our country who understand that it's profitable for our country to support America, we need to understand in which direction will this take our country. We should be clear about one thing in our mind that these wars are to be fought above the religious insanity. This war is economical. This is a war of capitalist order. We need to rise above the religious insanity and fight this war. This is the point I wanted to put in front of you all. Thank You.
America
BJP
Hindutva
RSS
Russia
capitalist
devotion
fundamentalism
government
religion
revolution
socialism
war
Masalewala Hall, Dongri, Mumbai, India
Ram Punyani makes reference to the process of secularisation and the elements which attempt to restrict it in order to maintain the status-quo. He also mentions the 'clash between civilizations.'
...that politics which is based on religion, the authority who interpret religion want to do two types of work - in national region, and in international region. Firstly, in national region due to technology, due to democracy in power, the process of social change due to which the Dalit (?) women come on the platform for equal rights. This is a process of social change which I, in short, call it secularisation. Some people of our society want to stop this process because of their vested interest. Some people who have a vested interest in having the status-quo, to prevent the social and gender justice, they take recourse to religion based factor. Now the language of democracy, what I mean by democracy is that in it, the Dalit, the exploited, the afflicted sections of the society, they fight for their equal rights. To stop this conflict, some people belonging to the society play politics in the name of religion. And politicising the religion is very easy because then the interpreted language spreads to many places. An old friend of mine hence criticised me which I accept. (The footage is cut.)
...the same issue. The truth in the clash of civilisations is, that as of today, the nations who have become powerful wants the other nations to remain backward, so that they can rule over the resources of the world. That is why they raise the issue of culture, which leads to clash of civilisations and divert our mind from the economical and present issues.
Dalit
civilisation
clash
conflict
democracy
gender
justice
politics
religion
rights
society
status-quo
Hence I am repeating this once again. The question here is not what is the main issue. Our understanding is very clear on that. The question here is how do we take these programmes to the society? If there is bigotry in the Muslim society, then how do we oppose it? When we talk of the platform, this is what we mean - that you can belong to any ideology, any religion, and any section of the society, but if you support the issues of democracy, you should come forward. It doesn't have a deep hidden meaning other than this. It may happen that we couldn't make you all understand the meaning of democracy. But democracy means that the bigotry in Muslim society, the politicisation in the name of Hindu religion, has to be equally opposed and this is an important issue for us. On an international level, if any nation bullies us, then should we agree to it? Even the Taliban is there. According to me the Taliban should not exist. This was also my issue which I hadn't put forth before and hence there were misunderstandings. For me, such powers are (?) in the society and there is where they should be. For times of today, the society that is today, where such powers want to establish their (?), even that (?) as a nation should not be accepted. And our government patronising those nations and agreeing to them need to be left aside, and the issue of an international democracy which I had said earlier and would repeat once again. Please help me if I am not able to make you all understand this, and how do we spread it to different places and to establish a government, an international government which has to be based on the principles of democracy. This is not a challenge for myself, but for you all to understand. (The footage is cut.)
Masalewala Hall, Dongri, Mumbai, India
Ram Punyani discusses democracy and the means by which it can be propagated internationally.
Hindu
Muslim
Taliban
bigotry
democracy
government
ideology
politicisation
religion
Masalewala Hall, Dongri, Mumbai, India
Mihir Desai discusses the fact that alternative interpretations and actions should be present in a discussion related to dealing with these sort of situations. According to him, these would then help create a revolution, instead of merely continuing to criticise the current environment.
The Marxist over the age of thirty-five and forty years are tired. Like Jairus had said that all of them are tired. To criticise... what is lacking in who, what things are defected, is what we can show using our intellectual ability that 'you all have not created this platform, you all have not done this and that, you all have not done anything in the past twenty years.' I agree that nothing has happened. People have been talking about this for the past two hundred years. For past two thousand years there has been a struggle, since the (?), Spartacus era, this has been happening. It's not something new. People are winning, people are losing, there are no easy answers to this. We can't say, nobody can say, on how to defeat America and Taliban? Nobody has answers to this. I do not have answers for this. If I had, I wouldn't have been sitting here. It's straightforward. We are discussing. The meaning of discussing is to find the answers together. Who amongst us does not have the answers? We all have different answers, different speculations that we can do this and it can happen in this way. So according to me, all the people who are criticising, nothing is coming out of it. They have a responsibility to keep an alternative as much as they have a right to criticise. They have a responsibility. They need to say that, 'yes we are wrong, agreed.' Everyone is wrong. But please say what you want to say, what you all want to do. Please speak up. Do you want to run off the meeting by just pointing out the wrong, or sit? At least, believe in the democracy that much that when some one is criticising you, at that time you would listen to what answers are coming your way. Would you like to show this much of democracy or run away from in between? He is my very good friend but still I would say it, Jairus. What I want to say, it is not personal. What I want to say is that we need to keep in mind the alternatives. Many of the things have failed. But for many such things struggle is on. Like Hasina said here, she has been trying since the past fifteen-twenty years. Yes, may be it would need fifty years to make it successful. But if someone is trying, it needs to be appreciated. Like this many, many... like, Mao said, 'Let thousand flowers bloom.' It's such a question. There many things which are being tried, we need to appreciate and respect it. If forty years have passed by and we are not able to do a thing, and that is why people also don't do it, then nothing is going to happen. Throughout the history, revolution has been brought by people who were under thirty years of age. We are all has been, have been. Okay. Whatever has been done by whomsoever, who had brought major changes in the world, were under thirty years of age. People above thirty years of age have only given speeches. This is what we need to remember. So when we give opinions, we have to think of alternative and we have to give space for the younger people to come here and talk. Thank you very much
Hasina Khan
Jairus
Mao
Marxist
Spartacus
democracy
responsibility
revolution
struggle
I will speak for just five minutes. I need to clear two things. Firstly, when I was talking, I was really very angry. One thing I need to make clear is that nobody can doubt the secular credentials of Ram Punyani. And I can never doubt him. If I doubt him, it would mean doubting my entire existence. I mean my complete personality would come under suspicion. The only complaint I had was that I was feeling that the mistake generally committed by Marxists, pardon me even I am with you all, the mistake is that our target is imperialism. But when someone is thrashing it, we are very happy. We say fight, we are with you. We don't try to get ahead of him in the fight. We forget that who is fighting and what is his ideology. The biggest example of this is in the year 1977, the formation of Bhartiya Janata Party. It was a mistake on the part of the Marxists and communists that they supported the
Sangh Parivar during the elections. Till today, we are bearing the consequences of that. We had thought that in this way, we could take out our common enemy Indira Gandhi, or will finish the Indira Congress. But believe me, we were not able to finish the Congress. Instead our own strength had (?). What I want to say here is that if America is fighting with Osama Bin Laden and Taliban, it is a war between two hooligans, a war between two devils. We cannot be a party to it. I feel that we need to condemn both of them. Apart from this, one lesson I have learnt from Feroze is that we need to understand Islam, religion and other things. I just want to say one thing - a meeting was held regarding forced
purdah. Feroze Mithiborwala had came there along with an article of Zeenat Shaukat Ali, in which it said about the definitions of
purdah in Islam, what are the beliefs associated with it,
purdah is not what it is interpreted as. They wanted it to be projected this way. I was the first person to oppose it. I said, 'firstly, it is not a matter of religion. We are straightforward against the forced
purdah. We clearly do not believe in forced
purdah.' I said 'if you have come along with an article referencing Quran and
hadees (events), there will be ten
maulvi's (religious scholars) who will come with fifteen thousand advance books saying see this, this is
purdah.' What I mean to say is that if you are talking in reference to Islam or any religion, it is so complicated, that there will be others who will defy it with bigger claims. Hasina Khan is successful because she did not favour or support any such organisation, please understand that Mr. Feroze. Three and a half years, let me say this, you are creating the confusion between (?). You have served three and a half years to make these religious people understand. You came to my office last week and said to me that 'you all were right, we made a mistake by trying to make these (religious) people understand, they are not going to change.' I say this to you once again today, that these (religious) people are not going to change, you are wasting your time. Only secularist people can come together and form an organisation and fight with all their strength. If you cannot do this, you will spread confusion. Thank you.
Masalewala Hall, Dongri, Mumbai, India
Sajid Rashid discusses the Marxists' previous mistake of having allowed religion to permeate an issue. He explains the need to understand Islam as a religion, and the necessity of taking a secular stand on the issue.
America
Bhartiya Janata Party
Congress
Feroze Mithiborwala
Hasina Khan
Indira
Islam
Marxists
Osama Bin Laden
Ram Punyani
Sangh Parivaar
Taliban
Zeenat Shaukat Ali
communist
hadees
religion
secular
Feroze Mithiborwala
Friends, today all the people who came here to speak are our companions and have always been with us. Hence I don't feel the need to thank them. Secondly, I need to make two announcements. Firstly, the issue of making a platform (The footage is cut.)
... What we can do and that is why we have organised Mumbai Peace-keeping committee and its meet is being held tomorrow at the office of India centre at evening seven. All those who are interested to join can join in. Secondly, on 21st of this month there is a meeting at Kalina campus in which few judges from South Africa are coming to talk on housing rights. It's in the J.P Naik Bhavan at twelve noon. You all can come even for this.
And for so long you all have been seated and listening, and after this you all will think on how we can fight the present situation and bring about a change. I end my speech by saying this.
Ram Punyani- I had requested Shakeel to make an announcement that on 20th October at Dadasaheb... (The footage is cut.)
... It is of no use joining such people. And Feroze went to him and said that indeed he was right, there was no use of making those people understand. So, in the end, how will one go and make them understand this issue and how will the dialogue happen? I think the person who can answer this is Feroze Mithiborwala.
India
J.P Naik Bhavan
Kalina
Masalewala Hall, Dongri, Mumbai, India
Mumbai
Peace-keeping
Ram Punyani
Shakeel Ahmed
Shakeel Ahmed gives the vote of thanks, and provides information regarding any upcoming events.
housing
rights
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