Interview with Namdeo Dhasal: The Poet and the Politician -1
Director: Madhusree Dutta; Cinematographer: Avijit Mukul Kishore
Duration: 00:43:39; Aspect Ratio: 1.366:1; Hue: 32.081; Saturation: 0.135; Lightness: 0.409; Volume: 0.393; Cuts per Minute: 0.252; Words per Minute: 91.016
Summary: Interview with Namdeo Dhasal (ND). Interviewer Madhusree Dutta (M). Shot by Avijit Mukul Kishore.
Namdeo Dhasal is an eminent poet, a Dalit poet (dalit- a generic name for untouchable communities). Famous for his volatile personality he remains an enigma in the history of Maharashtra. Namdeo's political journey spreads from communism to Dalit Panther (Dalit liberation party) to right wing Shiv Sena, the extremist party which brought regional chauvinism in the politics of Maharashtra. In some way the life of Namdeo Dhasal is also a map of Maharashtra, specially of Mumbai - from vibrant trade union movement to assertion of regional identity of the working class in Sanyukta Maharashtra movement to sectarian politics to destructive 'development' under ruthless globalization and resulted identity politics.
The poet Namdeo, the Dalit Namdeo, the power broker Namdeo, the survivor Namdeo, the rebel Namdeo, the melancholic Namdeo, the cunning Namdeo, the defeated Namdeo, the avant garde Namdeo, the idealist Namdeo, the compromised Namdeo - he has been everywhere, from the fringes to the centre. Quoting Dilip Chitre, “ Uprooted from the countryside and replanted in the inner city and the rotten core of Mumbai - a city of the most extreme and dehumanizing forms of exploitation - Namdeo's human roots proved not only tenacious, but also triumphant. He grew up out of a cesspool, drawing nourishment from it, metabolizing its toxic waste and thriving on the immunity he acquired, to become the poet of the underworld, a lumpen messiah, a poor man's bodhisattva". (Namdeo Dhasal, Poet of the Underworld)
The interview was a feeble attempt to get into the phenomena that is Namdeo Dhasal. He was a reluctant interviewee. The session was interrupted by numerous phone calls - most of which are complicated 'business' affairs which needed to be fixed. Still at some points in the middle of the session he became real, approachable and maybe somewhat vulnerable. At the end though when we asked him to recite his famous poem Mumbai, Mumbai, Mazhya Priya Rande (Mumbai, my beloved whore) to the camera he said it was too long for him to read.
MD: what is your oldest memory of Bombay?
ND: when our father…as we could not live on the village farming, he brought our family to Mumbai. It must have been 1957-58. We did not alight at Byculla, but at Boribunder. And that is why all that blazing lights of Mumbai any boy coming from the village would have been shocked at this experience. Nothing beyond being dumbfounded. And Mumbai's population, which was much less than today, the traffic jams of today and the pollution, that was not the picture at that time but whatever was there was something to fall in love with.
Wide shot of Namdoe Dhasal's house in the Florida building at Andheri West. A bright naturescape wallpaper on the wall dominates the room. Close to the ceiling hung portraits of Marx, Engles, Lenin, Mao Zse Tung and Ho Chi Minh – a reminiscence of his past belief in left politics. Below the iconic portraits is a photo of Indira Gandhi, the former prime minister whose one of the main contributions to Indian politics was declaration of emergency (suspension of all democratic rights) and persecution of left and socialist leaders. Namdeo obviously wears his contradictions on his sleeves. In his own words, 'In the period we were passing through then, Indira Gandhi was a heroine to me in the international context and in the political situation in India. ….. I love Mao. I love Fidel Castro and his friend Che Guevara. I love Ho chi Minh. I love Marx and I love Lenin. I love those people in their own time.' Namdeo on Namedeo in Namdeo Dhasal, Poet of the underworld, 2007.
He talks about his family's arrival to the city – a typical migration story of a dalit (untouchable) family from the interior rural area to the metropolis. The poet talks about the magic of electric lights and the overwhelming effect of the scale and perspectives of city images.
Arab Gulli – it does not exist in popular memory anymore. It seems to be related to the trade relationship of the port city with the Arab countries.
Golpitha: the then red light area.
Null Bazaar: the ceramic and hardware bazaar which still exists.
Mohd. Ali Road: a large span of space covering various bazaars, mostly populated by Muslim traders.
Pila House: Play house on paper, Pila house in popular usage. It was the entertainment district of Bombay.
Boribunder
Byculla
Golpitha
Mohd Ali Road
Mumbai
Null Bazar
Pila house
Play house
Pydhonie
arrival
awe
city
cityscape
dazzle
electric
electricity
family
gas light
horse carriage
immigrant
impression
kerosene light
light
marriage procession
memory
metropolis
migration
mumbai
oil lamp
perspective
pollution
population
scale
traffic jam
victoria
village
TV
Florida apartment, Andheri west, Mumbai
ND: But a person from a village where we had to live in kerosene chimney… electricity reached our village very late. Gas lights in gram panchayat, or taluka panchayat, or in marriages or carrying hillal (light of some sort) on the head and seeing the village in that light… I felt totally dazed by the blazing lights here. We sat in Victoria (horse carriage) and from there to Arab galli, Pydhonie and that area, Golpitha, Null bazaar and through Mohd Ali Road and Play House meaning Pila House.
Mehboob Khan made his iconic film Mother India in 1957 with popular star Nargis. Obviously the publicity of the film dominated the cityscape and the imagination of the citizens.
This experience of coming was very beautiful…and I remember that when we reached and all the luggage was kept we went for lunch via Ganesh Talkies to Byculla, I think Voltas company, isn't it? and there was a poster of Mother India - Nargis on one side and a bull on the other. And all that seemed so weird. That was the first experience. I have written prose about this experience.
Byculla
Ganesh Talkies
Voltas company
alienation
cinema
cityscape
ganesh talkies
hoarding
image
memory
mother india
nargis
nostalgia
popular culture
poster
prose
publicity
voltas company
Initially he was reluctant to give interview. We are happy that finally he is trying to make space for us.
On the phone: yes, yes…. I am little busy now, I shall call you late… Ok ok… I shall call you in the evening…
cell phone
interview
MD: Tell us about Bombaiya language…
ND: Mumbai's language, spoken in various ways in various areas of Mumbai…if we say Mumbai's language then we won't get a sense of this language. Generally, we say, corrupt Hindi mixed with a little Urdu, mixed with little…if I am Marathi, then Marathi, if I am from south, then that language. So I don't agree with this one definition of Mumbai's language. I say that the language of Mumbai has been created by every basti (settlement/slum) in Mumbai for itself in its own ways. If you go to South Mumbai, then in south Mumbai (mobile rings). Then basically the language of south Mumbai has many angles. It has influences of Anglo Indians, Urdu, Hindi-speakers… even if they are from Bihar and U.P. and others. Basically the Urdu of minorities, and Parsi and then Marathi & Gujarati - all these mix you will find in the language of South Mumbai - which they call Bombaiya language. And it has relations to the underworld also.
Bhendi bazaar
Bihar
Gwalia Tank
Kumbharwada
Mazgaon
Mumbai
Namdeo talks about his most favourite topic. Languages in the metropolis. He eloquently maps the evolution of languages in various locations and neighbourhoods in Mumbai. He agrees quite unselfconsciously that Mumbai is a city of multiple languages – something which does not go well with his current public persona as a supporter of the Chauvinist Marathi party Shivsena. He connects language based settlements with various livelihood activities and its influence on the street language of the area.
South Mumbai
U.P
Umarkhadi
ambience
anglo indian
atmosphere
basti
bombaiya
candy floss
canvasser
coffeewala
colloquial
corrupt
culture
daily wage
daily wager
dalit
gujarati
hand cart
heterogeneity
hindi
language
livelihood
majority
marathi
migration
minority
mumbai
muslim
parsee
peanut seller
petty trader
settlement
south bombay
street
tram route
urdu
vendor
worker
ND: Small industrialists, petty traders are there - vendors, canvassers, daily wager, hand cart puller… then say peanuts vendor, coffeewalla, even candy floss sellers; … all sorts of vendors who are found around school compounds, a balliwalla,who comes in the morning all these characters are present, and such an atmospheric culture you will find only in South Mumbai. When I came there was a lot of Muslim population, but Dalits were majority there. On the opposite side, the road coming from Gowalia Tank, which went to Mazgaon, earlier it was a tram route… on the opposite side of Kumbharwada… right from Bhendibazar and then beyond that to Umarkhadi… was Marathi area….
ND:-(looks at his newly arrived guest)…Come, come, come slowly, sit….
You'll have to sit there…
(Answers phone) Sanjay? Who's speaking? Yes, Amarji….should we go? It is all fixed. Can you come over?
How long will you take to get here?
That's ok; we can just leave from here.
No, no, the CM is there, we have to just land there directly, because I never take an appointment…
We'll go suddenly. Yes, only if we go suddenly shall we get a turn. We'll go exactly 6-6.30pm.We can leave here at 6,or around 5-5.30
ND: similarly if you go to Lalbaug…. what we generally take as Bombaiya bhasha (language) is the cosmopolitan language from South Mumbai. This is what I assume. The language that is spoken in Lalbag area, is also specific to Bombay but different from the former. That has more impact of Konkani language, from Malvan, Sindhudurg…
Lalbaug
Malvan
Mumbai
Sindhudurg
South Mumbai
The language, like all other cultural aspects in a metropolis is ever changing with the continuous influx of migrants. Even the Marathi language, which is claimed to be the language of the soil and thus uncorrupt, has many elements of plurality within it and it changes with the intervention of various dialects brought in by the migrants. Who can vouch for this than the celebrated poet himself.
bombaiya
colloquial
cosmopolitan
dialect
dominant
influence
interpolation
konkani
language
locality
malvan
marginalized
migration
mixed
plurality
porous
spoken
ND (on phone)
Yes, it's a good thing I got you on the line…Tadke Sir…
I have called that girl over today, and you have given her the appointment letter, but now what other "good deed" needs to be done five days on?
You have to give her the proper guidance You know about her case.
No, something was said over there about 80% marks being needed and all that….
Yes, all that is true, but hear me out, she will learn, you teach her…. this is my appeal to you. The entire family's responsibility is on her and the other daughter.
Yes, I just told her today, she is a bit scared or what, who knows…
The thing is, if you support her a bit, only then is it possible, otherwise not.
Ok, ok…
I am in your debt, Thank you. I think from all the useless people sitting in Jet, you seem to be the one rising Sun….Thank you….Ok, bye.
So…the language of Lalbag is different. Then if we come to Dadar, if it is from Hindu colony, that is ekar ante Brahman's language ("ends with the syllable "e" - Pune Brahmins way of talking which is considered pompous by other Marathis) then if you go to Worli, then people from Satara, Sangli. Then in Worli there are two types of people – police quarters and dalit basti (colony). Police community stays within themselves, their interactions are restricted within the confinement of the colony. Well… when the upheaval happens… say 1974 during Dalit panther movement or in the Shivsena – congress clash that used to took place – then these boys would participate actively. That is the second step.
Namdeo Dhasal eloquently and with lot of ease explains the class and caste structure of the Marathi speaking community in the city. The dalit people from Konkan form the base of the working class, mainly working in the textile mills or as constables in police force. The phenomena of Konkani police constable – little gullible, little rustic and yet a cunning survivor – which is immortalized in the popular flicks by Dada Kondke, starts from here. The Marathi spoken by the Konkoni Dalit working class was the dominant language in Worli. But the prominence of the working class people who are also Marathi-Konkani-Dalit are fast reducing due to the high-speed real estate development and closure of textile and other industries in the city. Though in the current agenda of the Marathi chauvinist party Shivsena, there is no mention of either the displacement of the working class in the city or the erasure of the Dalit-Konkani language. Instead they are busy churning out violent rhetoric against 'outsiders'.
1974
Dadar
Lalbaug
Maharashtra
Mumbai
Pune
Sangli
Satara, Maharashtra
Worli
ambience
basti
bramhin
british raj
character
chauvinism
cliché
colony
comic
community
congress
constable
culture
dalit
dalit panther
demography
dominant
girni
insular
interaction
konkoni
language
maharashtra state
majority
marathi
movement
police
politics
population
rule
settlement
shivsena
spoken
stereotype
stock
textile industry
typical
upheaval
working class
ND: But, from the residents' point of view, within the police colony, the Marathi people were primarily Konkani .The Konkani people in police force, they were not in higher positions - so you had these typical hawaldars (constables). Now, even to find a typical police, in the last two decades has become difficult – because that population which was mainly Konkani has reduced in numbers. And now its all mixed and after the establishment of Maharashtra state, lot of water had flown under the bridge….
but since British Raj, you would find Konkanis… either in the textile industry or some of them in Police. So the language of Dalits in Worli, was the dominant language. The rest of the people there were secondary.
ND: Even the spoken language of Prabhadevi, which was dominated by Brahmins, had an influence of the spoken words of Dalits from Satara, Sangli. When we leave Lalbag, then Parel naka (square), and move forward, we come across BDD chawl and labour camp. Then the whole strip from this side of Dadar TT (Tram terminus) - Bhoiwada from Byculla to Voltas, then that talkies, I forget the name now… that side of Ganesh … towards Byculla… yes, Jai Hind – next to Jai Hind there is a large settlement of the textile industry workers. From Jai Hind to Naigaon, BDD chawl – had workers colony. BDD chawl was a primarily dalit basti (settlement). So this strip – from BBD chawl to Jai Hind was a settlement of typical Konkani speaking…. Marathi Konkani speaking people.
Tracing the evolution of languages through the map of Mumbai continues. By now we are completely smitten by the journey. Namdeo maps the working class pockets in the city. The working class neighbourhoods which are called pockets today were the most visible and audible population in the '60s. It was the most glorious period of the textile workers' history. The textile mills were doing well, the left workers' unions had huge support base and the working class had substantial political significance. As almost the entire textile industry has closed down since 1980- large part of the working class settlements in the Parel area that Namdeo is talking about are under threat of being erased due to pressure from service industry and globalised market. Same with Dharavi, popularly known as Asia's largest slum. Namdeo mentions that Dharavi was just getting built during his youth. That Dharavi is now slated to be re-developed at the cost of massive displacement and livelihood loss. The history of language, street cultures, market economy and real estate politics become one.
Bandra
Bhoiwada
Byculla
Dadar TT
Dharavi
Jai Hind talkies
Lalbaug
Matunga labour camp
Mumbai
Naigaon
Parel
Prabhadevi
Sangli
Satara
Sion
Voltas
bombaiya
bramhin
charmakar
chawl
cinema
cityscape
community
corrupt
culture
dalit
development
dharavi
dominant
elite
geography
girangaon
girni
influence
interpolation
intervention
konkani
language
leather artisan
left party
locality
marathi
migrants
neighbourhood
orthodox
purist
purity
redevelopment
settlement
south indian
spoken
street
suburb
talkies
tamil
textile industry
union
workers' colony
working class
ND: The rest which have got mixed with Hindi etc. is a different thing. The language of Bhoiwada which is typical Dalit language. And then when we come ahead to Sion area etc. and we have the South Indian community. Southern community till the labour camp, Matunga labour camp… in our time Dharavi was just getting built. That is why the Nadar community from south, some other community… the entire Dharavi has South Indian majority (actually it is Tamil community. But they are generically called south Indian). Similarly the Dalit charmakar (leather artisan) community in Dharavi they have a different bombaiya language. Even further, when you reach the suburbs – the middle class people scattered around have their own languages. In Bandra… what to say about them… they are fussy even about their table manners - guarded their language more rigidly. Now even in the suburbs, language is getting corrupted.
He speaks with the caller on the phone in Hindi – the mixed language of the city!
On cell phone:… yes.. . yes, tell me Advaniji. With your blessing… you come over… no he has just left for Mr Amar's studio and then we will reach. Come around 4, 4.30… Yes, yes…. No you come. I will have to go… for the airtime… around 6.30. Please come… Ok…
airtime
appointment
cell phone
hindi
language
studio
ND: So... you said Bombaiya bhasha (language) - that has all these different contradictions. The basti (settlements) of Mumbai has been segregated according to various castes - community divides. So... the secular people in a capitalist democracy don't look at the ground reality and pretend to be broad minded. That will not do, you have to pay attention to the sociology of something....eg. you are making a documentary on Mumbai you have to see it in that way. When Namdeo Dhasal says something or Narayan surve says something it is not necessarily representative of the reality. It is not the reality, it is one aspect of reality.
Namdeo Dhasal slowly warms up to his elements. The word 'cosmopolitan' has a long history in Mumbai. In the late '50s when the city reeled under the issue of the legal status of Bombay this word was coined by the non-Marathi speaking people. The section which demanded either autonomous status or a provision to declare it as a bi-lingual city, based their arguments on the cosmopolitan nature of Bombay. The Marathi speaking majority who were mainly textile workers wanted the city to be part of Maharshtra – the state formed on the basis of Marathi, the language of the majority. The language identity took a class formation. But today the word 'cosmopolitan' is smirked at by the Marathi chauvinist groups in the city and often used negatively in order to provoke the Marathi cadres into violence against migrants. When Namdeo uses words like 'cosmopolitan', 'secular', 'Bombaiya' and 'dwibhasik – bi-lingual' he brings in the contempt stemming from this history.
Mumbai
bi-lingual
bombaiya
capitalist
contempt
corrupt
cosmopolitan
democracy
demography
discussion
dominant
dwibhasik
elite
ground reality
identity
issue
language
language group
mafia
maharashtra state
majoritarianism
migrant
mumbai
narayan surve
politics
reality
representation
secular
sociology
spoil
state
struggle
underworld
working class
tv
MD: but there are many realities…
ND: no, no reality is relative…it's present and it is not. We won't go into that philosophical discussion. But if you see - the development of this city or the structures of this city… has happened in this particular way, so we broadly talk like this. And in this Bomabiya language, which was cosmopolitan, has been spoiled by the mafia in the end. So the Bombaiya language which was cosmopolitan, was corrupted by the mafia. The present state of the of Bombaiya language – the 'cosmopolitan'- would ashamed the 'secular' people. There was a respect for the language, this language has been spoiled by mafia and builder culture… and… there's nothing further to be said about this…Mumbai state… it became bilingual…
ND: In 1957-58 during the movement of Samyukta Maharashtra (United Maharashtra) movement, the whole working class… as in the communist party or in the socialist front among the working class the textile/mill workers were majority. Then came the dalits, then the migrants from the villages – the farmers, the daily wage workers, the landless peasants, they all had large scale participation in the sanyukta maharashtra movement; they struggled and then policy of dwibhashik (bi-lingual state) ended and Mumbai state (he must have meant Maharashtra state) was established on 1st May 1960. In this entire period - the Mumbai region legislative assembly was established in 1935. I mean it came to life… it was there earlier too, British used to nominate people before this also or used to make somebody or other sit in the council hall, but in the British era the systematic start of Mumbai legislative assembly was in 1935.
Sanyukta Maharashtra movement (United Maharashtra Movement) was a movement of identity assertion for the Marathi speaking people in the city. (For more detail see 5 events of Sanyukta Maharashtra Movement: Talk show on this site). The highly popular movement enjoyed support from all left trade unions, socialists, intellectuals, students and also from the centrist parties. The popular and intense movement culminated to victory when Bombay was declared part of Maharashtra state on 1st May 1960. The policy of bi-lingual status too ended there. Though this development was termed as the victory of the working class, in reality it did not yield any benefit for the working class. In the subsequent decades the real estate politics and market economy marginalized the working class, Marathi and non-Marathi alike, to the extent of being extinct. But the memory of the Sanyukta Maharashtra movement is still invoked by the right wing chauvinist parties (namely Shivsena) to periodically assault the migrant workers from other parts of the country. Instead of working class victory it had turned into a weapon to split the working class around language identity.
Though Namdeo is acutely aware of this twist, he chooses to evade this topic and instead turns the discussion into usual Congress bashing.
1st may
1935
1956
1960
Maharashtra
Mumbai
agenda
ambedkar
assertion
betray
bhandare
bi-lingual
borkardada
british
chauvinism
chief minister
class politics;
co-option
communist party
congress
council hall
daily wager
dalit
dange
dwibhasik
farmer
identity
landless peasant
legislative assembly
madke bua
maharashtra
majority
marathi
migrant
morarji desai
people's movement
policy
politics
randive
rao bahadur dolas
s k patil
s m joshi
sanyukta maharashtra movement
shivsena
socialist
state
textile mill
twist
united maharashtra movement
victory
workers
working class
yashwantrao chavan
ND: So through this period of all the power politics from 1935 to 1955-56… in 56… 56 brought in the 'dwibhashik' (bi-lingual policy). The chief minister for the 'dwibhashik' state was Yashwantrao Chavan. Morarji and all were around too. But Morarji was the representative of the entire Gujarati community, means the propertied people. Then everything would happen here because of S.K. Patil. If S.K. Patil was there that means Borkar dada was there too. Now if they had to be opposed then there was Dange, after him there was Randive… after the split of the communist party… the Socialists were there – Nagargore, S.M. Joshi… so there were lots of people. On the other side there were people from the Ambedkari movement. Rao Bahadur Dolas, Madke bua, Bhandare and big people like those.
ND: Seen from this perspective, in my opinion - congress has kept the power in its hands for the longest time. Congress for its own politics…if we say that British policy was divide and rule then Congress has done nothing else. The bastis (settlements) of Mumbai are made on the basis of divide and rule – if you go to Girgaon, then you have Pathare Prabhus, the 'original' people. If you go to Mahim, then Kolis. Mumbai is made of seven islands, and Angiers, a Portuguese architect has built up Mumbai. But after the foundation, it actually started…. when Mumbai was given as dowry to the British, in the wedding of their prince with the Potuguese princess. The development that started after that… during that time in 1885 Congress was founded, and from then till Tilak in 1920. From 1920 to 1935, whose rule was it?
Girgaon
He blames Congress to play the caste politics in public space distribution for their vested interest. Namdeo opines that in independent India the Congress structured the city around caste and community based settlements and localities. There was something very genuine in his anger against the Congress. Surely this centrist party is the traditional power base and the hub of the elite gentry. Namdeo marks their political journey with astute and precision. But it is his attempt to find subaltern alternative in the extreme right wing chauvinist politics which is astounding.
Mahim
Mumbai
7 islands
angiers
architect
b j kher
babasaheb ambedkar
bal gangadhar tilak
basti
blessing
bombaiya
british
british prince
calculated
caste
chief minister
city
cityscape
communist party
congress
dange
divide and rule
division
dowry
foundation
government
independent labour party
koli
language
member of legislative assembly
mla
opposition
original
pathare prabhu
patronage
policy
politics
portuguese
portuguese princess
rule
ruler
segregation
settlements
settler
strategy
wedding
working class
ND: We may say that working class was powerful or so and so had a hold, actually there was a mighty working class under the communist party - but as a major power, the rule was of congress. Because from '35 to '37 Mumbai was a "Province" and the chief minister was B. J. Kher. You must have noticed in the 1937-38 assembly, there were 15, 16 MLAs (members of legislative assembly) from the Independent Labour Party of Babasaheb Ambedkar. Dange was also with them. There were other leftists. But they are in the opposition. So the rule under the blessing of the British was of the congress. They have been ruling since a long time and while they are at it, they have seen or even preserved and encouraged a calculated castist division of Mumbai. So when we say bombaiya language, bombaiya language, it is broken and even more splintered.
MD: which Marathi language?
ND: the written Marathi - upper caste Marathi, dalit Marathi are just parts of it, of course. And Marathi speaking people were in the majority. Now its about 30%, but back then it wasn't the case.
MD: But when officially there is a demand for Marathi language then it is for Brahmin Marathi, you also know that.
ND: No, no, not Brahmin. Officially Marathi language, the practitioners of this language or those who insist on it… Who are the bureaucrats? For thousands of years there is one class of people who have got the monopoly over wealth, prestige, knowledge. These people naturally become bureaucrats. The language of administration should be Marathi, people talked and fought for this, but still the Maharashtra Govt. has not enforced 101% Marathi as language of rule.
The poet Namdeo Dhasal who spoke a while ago so eloquently about the spoken language of the Dalit working class and its intervention into the dominant culture of Mumbai, now talks about an 'official' Marathi language which needs to be imposed on all. The politician Namdeo Dhasal refuses to consider the hierarchy between various spoken Marathi which stems from the class structure. Instead he insists that the imposition of the written Marathi of the educated class as the language of administration would resolve all the class and caste issues.
Though multi-linguality is part of India's cultural richness, it has always been a political issue in independent India. The assertion of various language groups often turn into hostility to other language groups. The situation becomes particularly volatile in the case of Bombay/Mumbai – as the city attracts large number of migrants from all language groups of the sub-continent. Demand for education and administration in mother tongue could be a valid campaign to counter the dependence on colonial English education. But the situation becomes complex where many mother tongues co-exist and the supremacy of one is propagated for vested interest.
Mumbai
administration
bramhin
bureaucrat
caste
class
co-existence
dalit
educated
education
elite
gentry
government
hierarchy
homogeneity
impose
intolerance
issue
knowledge
language
majority
mandate
marathi
mother tongue
official
plurality
policy
rule
state
wealth
written
MD: if the administration starts functioning in Marathi, then which Marathi will it be? What difference will it make to a Dalit woman in say, Sangli?
ND: No. I can ask you the same question,….What is happening in West Bengal, I don't know. But I have contacts with Bengali writers Sunil Ganguly, Shakti Samant… no not Samant, Shakti Chattopaddhyaya who had died and then I have also met Mahasweta Devi, specially in the period when Charu Majumdar and other naxal (radical communist party movement) leaders were prominent. That time I met the other writers who came from that movement… so what about the insistence on Bengali there? In Bengal also there is the problem of shudra and ati shudra (lowest denominators in the ladder of caste system). So even if there is a small difference it is still Marathi. Because the system of our society is that even if we try to give ourselves an identity, by saying we are Indians, the reality is the caste system. And after independence in this country, atleast 800 main castes and 5000 sub-castes are there, still alive today. And each caste has a different language. But generally if we talk about Bengali language, we do not take into account the contradictions of the Bengali language.
Namdeo Dhasal denies vehemently that the class and caste structure within the politics of a single language has any major significance. In order to settle me he brings in the example of the Bengali language in West Bengal. Bengali speaking people are one of the most chauvinist language groups in India. The presence of large number of migrants and non Bengali speaking citizens in the city of Kolkata has made no impact on the spoken language of the city. He also mentions radical left ideology which flourished in West Bengal in the '70s in support of his argument. But the fact is the said naxal movement had neither paid any attention to caste politics nor was interested in cultural issues such as language.
Finally he suggests that a representative language of all trends in Marathi should be made official language and administration should be conducted in that. The poet and the politician – walking a tight rope!
Mumbai
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atisudra
benefit
bengali
bombaiya
bramhin
caste
charu majumdar
citizenship
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dalit
elite
gentry
identity
impose
independence
indian
language
left
lower caste
mahasweta devi
marathi
movement
nation
naxal
official
poet
politician
progress
rabindranth tagore
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MD: No, we don't…
ND: The language of Bengal… the benefit of democracy or the left movement – how much chance has the lower classes got to express themselves in their languages. The writers of the past, Rabindranath or many others…(MD: are Brahmins only)
ND: Your language is completely Brahminised. Over here, in Marathi if you say the urban language, then the language that is representative of all, is desirable. But you asked about Bombaiya bhasha (language), I just told you the intricacies of ...
MD: I am agreeing with you when you said there is no one Marathi. According to the caste system…
ND: So I told you, how and what Marathi language does. If you mark settlements community wise, if you preserve it like that - then what should not happen starts happening. Because people do not interact with other communities at all.
Jaya: What you said earlier, that Mumbai was cosmopolitan, (ND: South Mumbai was…) from that have we gone to linguistic divides, negative assertion of language?
ND: No, no, you cannot say that. Mumbai is the capital of a state, and it is an industrial town. How can there be linguistic divide? Basically, the concept of socialism is that the language of the majority should be used. Why was there a linguistic division of states? Who did it? In independent India, Nehru had proposed this policy, and after independence, all the leftists, even Dange, he did not say this is a negative assertion of Marathi, in fact then he was at the fore front of this 'negative' insistence! The state in which a certain language is used most, the administration should be in that language, where is the negative assertion in that?
Was it a mistake to draw the states around the language groups after independence? Has the concept of federalism failed in India? The ideal of state autonomy metamorphosed into parochial identity politics and regional chauvinism? Have we failed to strike the balance between assertion of people and majoritarinaism? Or simply the failure of class politics made space for chauvinist principles? Why and how somebody like Namdeo Dhasal fails to recognize that the present agenda of assertion of Marathi culture is neither based on caste equality nor on pro-working class ideology? Insistence on Hindi as national language has invoked violent protests from the South. English is the only common language of the country, yet it is accessed only by a handful of elites. The status of English is no more that of a colonial language but a language of privilege. The Indian languages need to be preserved and practiced. But how to handle that in a place like Bombay / Mumbai which is essentially multi-lingual?
Mumbai
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state
MD: more about BDD chawl riot….
ND: The issue of BDD chawl riot - the basic reason behind that is the establishment of Dalit panther on 9th July 1972. At that time, all over the country, there was a hostile atmosphere for Dalits. There were atrocities taking place in the south at Killawilmani. At one point 117 people were burnt, and there was evidence of atrocities here and there. And we, the people in literature, I was involved in the Little Magazine movement. That movement had spread all over the country in the decades of `60s and `70s. It was also in Bengali and Gujarati. In the `70s, it started in all the languages.
BBD chawl riot of 1974 is a landmark in the history of Maharashtra. BBD chawl, the working class settlement, was the head quarter of the radical Dalit Panther party. Following a clash between the Dalit activists and other political workers, police opened fire and 12 dalit youths got killed.
Namdeo Dhasal explains that the issue was of a marginalized community organizing themselves and learning to manipulate the parliamentary system to assert their rights. It was a strategy of subversion in order to gain visibility and bargaining power.
BDD chawl
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ND: People like me who came from the village, who had seen the cruelty of the caste system, naturally we thought we should work on this through an organisation. Panther was started and it spread all over the state. During that time, there was a by-election. Because Bhandare was the MLA (member of legislative assembly) and then he was made the Governor. So there was election for that one vacant position. In the congress, Ramrao Adik was given ticket. I think there was Jan Sangh at that time, so from that party was… Vasantrao…I think Pandit, isn't it? From communist party there was Rojatai (Roja Deshpande). We had taken the position that Congresswala – because before that Indapur Bavda, there…now there is this minister Harshavardhan Patil, his father was the dada there. And his brother, Shankarrao Bajirao Patil was a reputed cabinet minister within the Mahrashtra Govt.
ND: But his brother was like - he would harass the Dalits there, had ostracized them, would not allow them to buy "mith-mirch" (meaning essential food items) or water. This event had an impact on us and we had started Panther. And the first election after that was this one. So our position was that in villages you harass and boycott Dalits, so we will boycott your elections. Hence the situation became volatile.
Dadar
He exposes the opportunist politics of the Congress. Though they always maintained a liberal centrist image for themselves, in reality they patronised right wing outfits in order to counter the left parties and organized working class. Today Namdeo believes that the clash between the Dalit activists and the right wing Shivsena which repeatedly took place in the '70s was a political mistake!
Mumbai
ND: Congress has always taken a lot of help from the Shivsena since its inception. That is history, anyone would tell you that congress needed something to break the challenge emerging out of the working class and that is why they had encouraged the Shivsena at that time and this is history…no need to doubt that. So Shivsena was also with the Congress at that time and because we had boycotted election, there was big confusion. A situation arose where the Congress candidate would have lost because of our campaigns. Around that time, Rajni Patel who had left the communist party, turned slightly liberal and joined the Mumbai Pradesh (state) congress…. but they still believed in Marxist thinking – so they did not understand what to do with the Shivsena. They started having meetings with us, telling us to join them. So we said how can we come with you, you did not do anything when you were in the communist party, and now you are telling us do this and do that. We are not interested. It is this… it is that… he told us, so we said all that is fine but finally we fought with Shivsena, you didn't. And in that whole period there were a lot of unnecessary fights between us and the Sena.
alliance
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ND: So in this election, on one side was Republican party as the leaders of Republican party were bound to parliamentary politics because of Babasaheb Ambedkar. So as someone became an MLA (members of legislative assembly) or MP (member of parliament) the whole lot went with the Congress.
We thought that to break the caste system, we must take with us those upper caste people who wanted to go against caste system.
And if we talk about this city, then in this city working class is the majority and we should build a relation with them.
Dalit politics has its own plurality. The Republican party which is founded by Babasaheb Ambedkar, the author of the constitution of India, always believed in parliamentary politics and has been a close ally to Congress. Whereas the young Turks of the Dalit Panther party wanted to boycott election and build a power base with alliances with other section of the working class and the left parties.(though barely 3 years after that both Namdeo and Dalit Panther Party supported Indira Gandhi who declared National Emergency in 1975. During emergency though many left and socialists leaders and cadres were arrested and killed, the criminal cases against Namdeo and other Dalit Panther activists were dropped). Namdeo also talks about internal hierarchy within the dalit society. As the class struggle could not erase the caste system, the caste atrocity too could not destroy the internal hierarchy of the maginalised.
Mumbai
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ND: And we should make friends with the leftist parties. But none of the leftist parties built any relationship with us, otherwise all this wouldn't have happened. For eg, take CPI (Communist party of India), or at that time, even CPI(M) (communist party of India-Marxist) was in existence. But they classified the Ambedkar movement as "lumpen proletariat" in the definition of Marx, or those who have no concrete role/position in the production system.
ND: Since the time of Ambedkar Saheb, they, the communists, have not looked at the Ambedkar movement as their own. In the '52 elections, the generation after Babasaheb used to hate communists. They used to think that the Babasaheb was against communists. We from the panther were among the first to break this false propaganda. We said that untouchables were a minority and minority cannot fight caste system. As it is there are 250 castes and there is no unity among them - then we cannot talk about anybody else.
ND: First of all to collect the untouchables, then to side with the dalits within the working class, then form protest within that. This is not a Marxist scientific idea. So, based on that idea, we started work and the first election we boycotted was the Worli election, and people filed cases against us. We were outspoken, be it the ruling party, chief minister or even right till Indira Gandhi; once we got organized, we'd speak out against all of them and say whatever we believed in. 153A, or there'd be riots…. In the rural areas close to 360 cases against the party workers were pending. When the riots took place, the reason behind it was that a group wanted to defect to Rajini Patil's camp and they were unable to do so as I was stoically opposing it. So, that plan fell through.
Saat Rasta, Mumbai
Strategies, euphoria, articulation and visibility of a new political outfit – it must have been really heady. They faced steep opposition from the centrist Congress, other Dalit parties such as Republican party of India (RPI) and the Marathi chauvinist party Shivsena. Nor are the left parties came to openly support them. Political significance of the Dalit Panthers was short lived.
Worli
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articulation
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bargain
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chief minister
court case
dalit
dalit panther
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election
history
indira gandhi
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police
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prime minister
rajni patel
republican party
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worli
ND: So, a meeting that took place in January, I don't remember the exact date, the meeting went against their wishes. So, the Congress then realized that this seat would slip out of their hands and hence the riots started. The riots actually started because of my speech. Then the police came to arrest me and I came to Saat rasta. So the issue was, if you boycott our people in the villages, we would boycott your elections and ensure that your candidate loses in the city. That is the small stand that we took. But within that stand, RPI (Republican Party of India), they were with the congress and ally in their government, they were all against the dalit panthers. The shivsena were also with them.
Now Shiv Sena has become caste sensitive too. These are the strange developments
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