Mumbai Music: Sharad Sathe
Cinematographer: Tanveer Hasan
Duration: 01:12:48; Aspect Ratio: 1.778:1; Hue: 18.804; Saturation: 0.027; Lightness: 0.114; Volume: 0.276; Cuts per Minute: 0.192; Words per Minute: 106.442
Summary: Senior Gwalior gharana musician Sharad Sathe speaks about his two gurus, DV Paluskar and Sharadchandra Arolkar, who represented two different strands of the gayaki. He discusses his journey as a musician, Mumbai audiences, and the important performance places in the city.
Pad.ma is a platform has a facility where you can annotate
Making Music
So, first we transcribe the whole interview, as people are watching the interview they are also seeing the text
and then it has some other layers, where I can invite someone, come and comment on it
if you want to talk about something, they can add to it, eventually it will become like a conversation with many people
and then, we come back to you and say, if you want to take back anything that you said or add anything more, you can add it there
So, i want to bring that over the next one or two years
I hope you do the right job. The thing that I request you , you can go on asking me questions, to the best of my capacity,
I am not a master of something, that I can, say, this is the master of, not like that
No, not at all, this is more like,
This is my views only, and I will express
I am also very interested in your sort of personal experiences in music, so in a sense having grown up in Bombay
Since our project is also to do with this city, like what is the intimate connection between the Hindustani music and Bombay?
What has been your experience? What has it meant for you to be living here and to be living a life in music? This is something that I am very interested in knowing
So, any stories you might have, anything you would like to convey
not just about your expertise, you know that we have come to you because you are a very well known singer,
but apart from that, just your own connect to this sphere of music, I will ask you about that
So, may be you could start by... [talking about] your first experiences of music, when did you first feel attached to Hindustani music?
Well, it was a long time back. When I was just a student, studying at college especially
Not that young, as a usually, a musician could start at the age of 8,9 or 10 whatever
I started comparatively very late. I started at the age of 17 or 18 almost
I was born in 32 (1932), 49-50 (1949-1950) I started. Learning from D.V. Paluskar
And, which college, were you studying in?
I was in Poona then, I was in Fergusson college, I have passed my Bachelor of Science exam
from Poona University, but simultaneously, I was doing music also, learning from Pandit D. V.Paluskar
So, you used to come here or he was in Pune?
No, no, he was in Poona only. He was in Poona. I came to Bombay in 1956-57
and, shall I close the door
Paluskarji in Poona, he used to live just opposite Gandharva Mahavidyalaya in Pune, in Shanivarpet
and, I used to go to him and learn from him, but he used to be very busy. On an average three weeks in a month, he used to be away for his concerts
You know, how popular he was. he was very much in demand
So, whenever he used to be there, I used to go and learn from him
So, there were no other teachers in the Mahavidyalay?
You were not studying with anyone else?
No, I did not go to any music school at all
Ok, ok, you went directly to him
Yes, directly to him. Personally, a 'Guru-Shishya' not a teacher-student sort of thing
If, I may put it that way. So, my elder sister was actually his student
Dr. Kamal Ketkar, who has done a doctorate in music itself. She was a reader in Thackersey [college?]
She has written a book on Pandit Paluskar right?
Which I have designed, and my reminiscence is also given in that book
lots of things, so that was my initial connection with music, my aunty was also a musician, she learned from Vinayakrao Patwardhan, Leela Limaye
She did not live long, she died very young
But, my curiosity, is that why did you decide at that moment, when you must have been in pre-university or first year of college
Actually, music was my fascination, classical music especially, that too not effeminate type of music, little robust, not harsh sort of thing
Quite masculine aspect of music. So, Ustad Fayyaz Khan was my inspiration, I must say
He inspired me a lot. I used to listen to him, without knowing anything of music, but somehow
This is records, in those days, gramaphone records
Also, Vadodara radio, every Thursday, they used to have his broadcast then, I hardly missed any broadcast
I don't know, I can't tell exactly what impressed me but his general style and his rendering and all these things impressed me at that age
Without knowing anything from that fashion in music. So, that's how I started
Then, my sister, I used to go to D.V. Paluskar that time also. He said, why don't you come regularly.
I used to go earlier with my sister, and he offered me to teach. I used to play a little bit of Tabla also
That, I learnt for two months only. So, he knew that also. That's how, I started there, going to him at his house in Pune
How long did you do that?
You see, I started in late 49 (1949), and he died in 55 (1955), so those many years. I have toured a lot with him
He loved me a lot and he used to take me on his tours. So, I have visited quite a number of places
and I used to watch him, how he used to sing, and how he caters to the audience
How, he is respected and the general setup of the mehfil and all these things, how decorum has got to be maintained
and how discipline is very important, and how he maintained it throughout the concert and even after the concert, before the concert, during the concert
All these things made quite an impact on me, and he used to admire me and love me
What do you mean by maintaining discipline? You mean in terms of how one sings or how one performs?
You said the discipline of the concert? What does that mean?
The Raaga, every musician has his own way of rendering it, so I used to pay attention for the correct diction of the bandish and all these things
and the connection with the rhythm and all these things were very important
So, in a sense you picked these things up, these were not taught to you right?
These are things that have to be observed and picked up, because nobody in Hindustani music comes and says,
'Look', he can only take you once, and say, this is the way how you should cross the road. He brings him back
and says, now it is up to you, I have shown the way, it depends on you, how to do it, but this is the way it has to be done
That is the ultimate. So, on this basis, he didn't actually, now sit here, this is 'sa', this is 're' and all these things
Never, because, when he used to be away, I used to learn from, one of his diciples, relations also, who used to stay with him
You know, D.K. Datar, Pandit D.K. Datar, a violinist, so his elder brother was a musician
Madhukar Datar, who used to stay with him. So, i learnt from him also during his absence
and then, they were staying together only, he was staying in his (D.V. Paluskar's) place only. So that's how....
So, at no time did you actually sit down and were taught the basics of music?
Before you went touring and all that
The strange incident is that, after learning for six months, then I passed my audition on radio also
That was, I was so fascinated with music right from begining
You spent a lot of time
How to, What to sing, what not to sing, How it should be sung
So, after learning for six months then I applied for the audition and then I passed it
This was here in Bombay or in Poona?
That time Poona radio was not there
So, this was in Bombay
So, this was in 1950's?
27 December 1950 was my first broadcast
What did you sing?
I sang 5:30-5:45 Yaman no Bhimpalas, 7:30-7:45. Two items only. Yaman. Like that. Fees paid was Rs15/-
50?
15. Those days
This is in Colaba, must have been right?
No, no, in Marine Lines
Marine Lines. There was A.G.'s office no, there was a studio
So, that is how, my story begins, and continues
That's very impressive, within six months of starting to learn music formally, you are already singing, performing in a sense
and when you are successful somewhere, it gives you more, what should I say
enthusiasm to go further ahead. That's how, I
So, in the six months, you had learnt these two raags, or also learnt others
No, few raagas, here and there
Because, I had not done any scholastic from the music point of view. Like, Prathama, Dwitiya and then Prarambhik and all
I did my Visharad all right, but that time when I was learning from Prof. Deodhar. So, after D.V. Paluskar's death, I came to Bombay
In 56(1956), and then, because there were learned musicians here and I wanted to learn from such musicians after D.V.'s death
Someone from that tradition, You know Deodhar was a student of Paluskar, and he acquired a lot of compositions from other musicians also
That always helped to widen my thinking or looking at a particular style of music. So, I wanted to learn from such an erudite scholar
Who could be telling me or teaching me, exactly what is not required and what is required
So, I trusted him and I had earlier heard him in Pune with his demonstrations, at a local school in Pune. I used to attend his lectures also
I was quite impressed then
So, where did you go to study? Did you go the school?
No, at his house
Where was the house?
French Bridge, so near the school
The school is downstairs and he used to stay in the next building upstairs
We have done some shooting in the school also
Yes, we met Sangeetha, we interviewed Sangeetha also
Oh, Sangeetha, Shyam's daughter
She is now the Principal, she is looking after the school
I know that, I am a trustee of the school actually,
How many years did that Taalim continue?
I started with him in 56 (1956), and left in 66 (1966). He used to be away quite sometime, he used to be in Benaras, at Banasthali also
But it was his profession, he was appointed as the Head of the Department of Music, there
So, that period was a interruption in my learning also, but I was very sharp in attending to what he used to teach
So, that way, I acquired a wider perspective of different Gharanas. What he learnt and what compositions he took from different musicians from different Gharanas
For, which he was quite known, he was quite a steady man. So, that helped me when I learnt from him for those ten years
Did he compile them, all the bandishes from the various Gharanas? Is it available anywhere in one place?
I don't think so.
He just passed it on
You know, Pandit Aravind Parikh, you know, he has recorded him also
He has recorded him, quite number of raagas and compositions in those raagas he has recorded.
So, besides that, i don't think he has published any book on that. But he was a writer on Music, he has got his own books also
And, for academic education he wrote books also. You know that
I don't read Marathi well myself, but I have got someone to translate those for me, all of this I have got just read out and I have understood
I found especially the way he picks up the details of each musician, you know even the
personality, even the gayaki, and how he writes about that in his book, was quite fascinating
Ya, it is all because he, inspite of being a student of Pandit Paluskar, Prof Deodhar looked at a wider perspective of music in general
and there were lots of musicians that he befriended with and acquired lots of compositions from them
and he has his own thinking on that. Where a musician used to tell him that this belongs to this raaga
Then, he used to question him, I think it belongs to this raaga because the aaroh, avaroh and all these things
So, that is how studiously he maintained those and did it and worked on it actually
He was quite close to Bade Ghulam Ali Khan as well?
He was almost his friend, like a family member
So, he writes very nicely about him in that book
Amazing stories,
Which are the other great singers that you got to meet or because they used to come there
Every year he used to hold the annual ceremony for Vishnu Digambar Paluskar, which was a mini conference like
Many musicians, youngsters and veterans also, they enjoyed singing there and they were taking pride in performing there
So, was it any particular one... the anniversary is what month?
This is in August month. Because Vishnu Digambar Paluskar died on 21st August 1931. So around that period he used to hold
It was quite popular, what should I say, event. That particular school
And you host the event in some concert hall or somewhere?
No, it was a school concert only, that was a important thing thatin his own school he used to host it
He never had it anywhere else
and how many days would the conference...
Three days
How many people would sing?
Roughly, How many people on each day would sing?
Per night say 10-15 or more than that. There was no time restrictions or something. It used to run till early hours in the morning also
When did he start doing this?
Very soon after Panditji left
I started learning from him around 56(1956) as I told earlier, since before that he had started this
But, i can't tell you the exact year when he started because there is none of his students alive today to talk on this
But, the records, if they are there in the school, can say something. That was quite popular.
Even artists like Ghulam Ali Khan, and several others big artists have sung there. They used to strive to sing there
So, this is a place where we should, of course there was a good friendly atmosphere there
Even, [unclear] and all this people were there
Does it still continue? This music conference?
Not to that extent, It's unfortunate, very unfortunate. You know this entire thing, this situation has changed so much,
Nearly sixty years ago, so...
So, which are the concerts you remember most of all, or which are the performances you remember, either there or anywhere else in the city?
I have listened to so many musicians in order to enhance my looking like things of music from different Gharanas
Kesarbai Kerkar for example, Ustad Fayyaz Khan Saheb, also other people from Agra school, Vilayat Hussain, Khadim Hussain
Latafat Hussain, and Anwar Hussain and even Kesar Bai's... Laxmibai Jadhav, and so many many people Jagannath Bua Purohith for example
He inspired me also, in spite of not learning from him. I used to admire him. My effort in connecting to music
So, so many artists, Hirabai I have heard
So, she was still singing a lot in the sixties? Hirabai was still singing in the sixties?
Yes, she was. She was. Of late, of course,she natural process it is
Reflexes are less
But is there any one memorable thing that you can remember?
Quite a number. Off hand one concert of Ustad Fayyaz Khan in Pune Music Circle
That was a concert there, way back in 1949. Because he expired in 50 (1950)
Before that he had come. It was quite memorable. Kesarbai's two concerts I heard in Pune at Poona Music Circle
What about Mumbai itself? Because one of the things we are doing is looking at Girgaum as an area and
We are looking at the important locations there where a lot of concerts, Laxmi Baug, Brahman Sabha
Laxmi Baug is a place, where this is all full of music. If you break any, what should we say
Brick from there, you will find some musician peeping out. It is so natural there, full of music.
Laxmi Baug was a very popular place, where all music concerts, there was Bombay Music Circle, which I have heard only
There the standard was so high, that Hirabai was supposed to go as the last performer in the sense
From the younger generation, or whatever from that time. But other stalwarts were there
So, that is how they considered that, the theory of seniority and all that
So, have you gone to concerts in Laxmi Baug?
Laxmi Baug I have attended so many concerts. Not of these
Not of these singers
I have sung there also, several times
It must have stopped in the eighties no?
Now, it is a wedding hall, Laxmi Baug
It has been a wedding hall, for some time
It has been a wedding hall
Even before there used to be weddings there?
It is known for music, in all the Girgaum area and that side, they used to be there like, it was quite a good hall
I have seen the inside. it is also nicely painted
But, you must be feeling really strange. When you sing there so many generations of singers before you
They inspire me a lot actually, though I am nobody before them, but you see those memories are there
It helps you. it helped me a lot
When was the last time you sang in Laxmi Baug?
I don't recollect, quite few years back
80's perhaps (1980)?
Because, I think after that we don't find any eveidence that it was used for singing
You know Master Navrang, he used to hold every year, Vishnu Digambar Paluskar's anniversary function there.
And, every year he used to call me and make me sing there. I sang there for him, Sangeet something
I don't know the institutuion name but I knew him personally well
and he belonged to that tradition so, along with musicians he used to hold this concert
Where all musicians from different schools used to come and so that was quite sometime back
I don't recollect exactly, the date. I do not want to misquote to you also
Sure, sure
What about Trinity Club?
Trinity Club is also famous, Bhaskarbua Bakhle used to sing
It is looking very bad right now,
Ya, I know
We had gone inside and we shot
See, the workers, who were devoted to doing something, they gradually reduced in terms of relation and all
The people who were connected with that club, from early ages and they did something to remember Bhaskarbua Bakhle
It was quite a famous club, a small third floor hall. I have sung there also
Quite number of concerts, I have participated
That is even more impressive than singing in Laxmi Baug. Because this small place, where so many famous people have come and sung
Because of the tradition of that hall. Bakhle Bua's tradition,
B.R. Deodhar, Deodhar also sang there
Deodhar sung in several places
So, what kind of audience did you used to get in Trinity Club as opposed to Laxmi Baug?
Same kind of audience
More or less they were looking forward to the musician's musicianship
Than all these gimicks and all that, they were not interested in that
But, they used to attend and appreciate, the content of music
Than their showmanship, but this was a singular kind, because of late music is to be seen more than heard
I am sorry for this comment but,
You should make whatever comments you like,
Actually, both should be there together, sometimes it lacks
How did the, this is slightly a practical question, How were the finances managaed in those days?
We are talking about say from 50's to 80's (1950-1980), because you have known that time intimately
When singers were invited or when an event had to be organised, like Deodhar's music conference...
How did they manage the finances?
They were hardly any musician, who asked for any payment,
It was the Barsi and so...
Yes, like that, those musicians were quite considerate and they never asked for any, 'we are coming from here'
'You must pay us this and that'
Whatever was possible Deodhar Saab used to contribute, not contribute from his own, from the school he used to pay
fare and something like that, if it was necessary, if it was required
All stalwarts have performed there, no doubt about that, see because of Prof Deodhar's connection, no doubt there
But, if you sang in Laxmi Baug or some equivalent concert hall, how, those were not tickets right?
They would have some kind of sponsorship or?
They wouldn't charge tickets?
At that time the economic situation was so good, as far as the music is concerned, there were maximum tickets of
In Poona, say of Poona Music Circle say Rs.50 a season ticket or something like that
I don't exactly know what are the figures but, they used to go and listen to it also,
We could afford, I was a student, I never asked my father to pay me for these concerts, but I used my influence and got admitted to these concerts
Unless, you do that,
I was looking at some old advertisements, that said, "four annas and eight annas" was the rate at the Girgaum area generally
There were leaflets and brochures and all these things, they used to print also
Actually, one of the old time singers Anjanibai Malpekar is supposed to have lived right next to Laxmi Baug
In that side road,
Vitthal Bhai Patel Road, Lamington Road.... Yes she used to stay there
She lived for quite long, many people respected her
But, she wasn't performing at the end
She had given up,
When did you start studying with Aarolkar Bua?
With Aarolkar Bua, you started studying?
1966 I started
So after you worked with Prof. Deodhar and he was travelling a lot
Took permission from him, not like, 'I do not like him and I will go to another teacher'
I hated that, I mean you don't give respect to that people
So, I asked him, 'see, I want to learn Tappa and all these other things also which belong to our school'
So, can I go to him? Yes, please go. He is a very good music person, performer and
He is a thinker, so you go to him. So, that is how, i started learning 66 (1966)
Till a couple of months before his death, I used to learn. 94 (1994) he died
I used to go to his house, he used to stay close by, Balmohan school no, on the same road as [unclear] on the other side
So, very close. Not that because it was very close that I used to go to him
But, that was something which, attracted me, that was a rare valuable thing in his music, which I found
Sorry what exactly is the name of the street?
Where Arolkar Bua lived?
Dr. Madhukar Road, same road it is a round road. Ending there on the other side
So, there is a school, which is quite famous, Balmohan school. Marathi school, now English medium is also there
Just opposite to that. He used to stay, One room settlement. He was single, a bachelor
How many days a week did you go?
You can't count,
One day was a year like me, a year for me rather. Because it was so vast, everytime I went there, I could get something from him
It depends not only on what he teaches, but how you receive?
That is very important
because if you don't understand the..., it is not worth it.
So, you were prepared to understand him differently because you already had such important teachers,
I belong to both schools of Gwalior. So, that is how I understood, what Maharasthra branch of Gwalior lacks
From the original where Arolkar belonged. He is the disciple of as you know of Pandit Krishnarao Shankar Pandit...
and Eknath Pandit and [unclear] and all all this
So, he has got a tradition right at the start of the... from Haddu Khan?
Because he stayed in the Pandit Gharana for quite number of years and taught him
and not only because of that, Arolkar was a great thinker. Unless he was convinced, he never composed or anything
He never till his life, imposed on anything. This is the best thing that I have understood, if you want to come, you come to me
I'll explain it to you, and don't ask me to come to your place and demonstrate that
I am not interested in that, If you likeme, you come to my place and you can sit throughout the night and I can sing for you
That is what always he said
Because, he looked at music as a 'abhyas', study of music, not only musicianship
So that way he was, he had very rich, thinking in that. which confuses a lot. Me particularly and
Since, I had learnt from both the schools, I could understand, where the Maharasthra branch of music lacked
With the asthai, antara, bandishes, compositions, which Arolkar taught me, same composition very different, right from the begining
Made quite an impression on me. I am not a faddist about that, I heard that, and that was the best thing
Now, this is simple. No, if you want to study then you have to be unbiased and put it there
So, in your opinion that you have studied both, what would be the lack? You said the asthai, antara
This is the same bandish but, expressed differently or it was different bandishes altogether?
This composition differs a bit. In the style rather than composition in as in notations. Notation is too technical term but the rendering also
can you just give us an example? Just sing in both traditions, anything you remember offhand
Just for the reference, I think we always talk about music but we won't hear what it is that you are saying
You need some tanpura? I have on my phone
It is quite nice actually, I use this only
If you tell me the,
Can I sit here?
For example Raag Kamod, you know ? "Hu toh jana mana chaand",, it is a famous composition
Now, we have been taught earlier, in say we used to sing mostly in Ektaal, now Arolkar sings in Tilwada
Which is a famous taal, so when I learnt from Arolkar, intially it went a little bit difficult or so
Because the composition starts on the Sam itself, have you heard it anytime?
This one I have not heard, but Tilwada I know
So, this is Tilwada, earlier it was Jhumra, In Jhumra also, I have sung that, in Sawai Gandharv festival long time back
First, I will sing the outline and then, I will sing with Taal
I hope I am not taking your time now,
Ya absolutely
Formerly, 'Jana mana chaand' this was the Sam [on 'chaand'] we used to sing, now
So, I will put it on Taal now [sings nom tom]
This is how we " "
you had learnt this bandish earlier in Ektaal you said is it?
I used to sing in Jhumra, when you learn something advanced according to you, you tend to ignore that
Leave it behind,
Naturally, otherwise you cannot progress, you want find out yourself, what could be the feeling behind it
That is individual of course, I don't know, what ever I have learnt earlier also authentic kind, there is no point in that
Otherwise, you will never progress
So, you said that the asthais themselves were different, the composition was different, that various [unclear] taal it should be sung also different
Anything else?
In this drut composition, 'Jaane na doongi yeri maayi apne balma ko' is a famous composition in " "
Some people sing like that,
This is a simplified version according to me, now see this
So, this the andolan that
For normally when some one comes to learn music, teach them a simple form and then slowly and gradually bring them up
if he is not fit for that, then he is not fit for singing this composition it is like that
But there is Arolkar who could, quite " " to all this. because he was mainly a thinker
You feel that many people follow this style of singing? I mean...
This is quite difficult unless you take taalim, you can't follow this
No, I am saying that, now a days you are not going to find many people who, are able to do this kind of voice production right?
Voice production is another thing, pronounciation is another thing, in Maharasthra only a few musicians have developed that
Those who belong to or have stayed in Maharasthra, pronounciation of a Hindustani composition or a Braj composition
It has got so much of " ". it should be clear but not harsh or something like that
It has got its mellowness, that has to be maintained
I was reading an exchange of letters in 1930's between Vaman Hari Deshpande and I think, one Kelkar
Who was a...
N.C. Kelkar, old style writer
He was a Marathi writer,
This whole discussion was, Vaman Hari Deshpande writes to him saying,
I feel that the sound is more important than the words, so, I don't feel that you really have to change and put Marathi words
Instead of Hindustani bandishes, which we have. So, what is your opinion on this?
And, so he (N.C. Kelkar) writes a long thing saying, ok, what is gone is gone but whatever should come now, we should be singing in Marathi
Nobody, stops you in singing in Marathi provided you convey that feeling of the composition particularly
Our Arolkar Bua, has composed one Tappa in... famous poet... Neela will be able to tell you
Marathi poet is it?
he has composed it in Tappa style, which is a famous kavita actually
There is one composition, Neela knows about this. This part of it she has looked after much much more than me
I'll check about that
I just wondered whether in, the time that you were studying, from say 50's to 70's or so (1950-1970) was there any discussion about the language of music?
No
I didn't pay much attention, if at all there was, because me I was more concerned with the tonal rendering in the sense musical rendering of the composition
But, the composition singing is a must because, it is an expression. Whatever is being expressed in the composition, you have to express yourself
With your intellect
Obviously, you can say that it is for the others to judgement , you should be able to feel yourself
I have done justice to this, and if there are compositions that do not, have scope for that, you should drop that
You should not insist on that
Because, you cannot convey the same feeling as you would for the other compositions
Generally in the Gwalior gayaki, people say that the bandish is very important
The sahitya is very important
So, when...
It is like when you said, Vaman Rao Deshapande said, there is not much importance, then drop it and sing aaa uuu aaa uuu
if it comes to that,
You are saying that you need a good grasp of Hindustani dialects and you know, Bhojpuri and all that
To understand what you are singing
Enough for rendering what is required, if you are a complete master then you can become a literatteur than a musician
That also, no one should" ". I have to apply to the music, if one considers that then that is a must
Because, composition, rhythm and swar, these three combine and then form music according to us
No part can be separated, you can't separate rhythm from the general rendering, nor the sur, nor the composition
You know, the reason, I am also asking this question because, I started working on the Dharwad musicians
and they were mainly Kannada speakers, many of them did not know Hindi, Marathi any of these
So, I always wondered how they became some of the greatest musicians, without it really being their language?
I think it is true of Maharastrians also, so I wondered if you wanted to say anything about that
see, if you understand the composition, from the literary point of view, then you can express it better than, i am sure on that
But, it is not everybody's cup of tea to understand, the details of that
It is not like the Maharashtrian would understand like a Dharwad person, because this Marathi is closer to Devnagari/Hindi
Whatever it is. For Dharwad and those people they are more ... Kannada oriented that side
But the compositions have been, Mansur for example if you ask him what is the meaning of...
He may not be able to tell you exactly, but generally one must know, and then try to render that
Not that everyone knows about it, but if he knows then, it is an added pleasure
So, you are saying that when a singer sings, he or she is not expressing the so called meaning of the words
They are expressing the composition
Composition means general grasp of the composition, how is it composed, what the occassion was
How the composer composed it, then you can think on it and on that basis you can render it
It is a blessing on the wedding, you can't know the exact meaning of the exact word
Because the poetic composition and the prosaic composition they vary a lot, because poetic question, that I need not tell you because I have not studied that much
I know this in principle, that formation changes quite a lot
Poetry has got to be more musical, if you are composing, than prosaic you can't just compose it like that
Some forms, which come with the musical part, then it is possible, otherwise no
If he is giving a blessing, then you should consider that and sing that blessing, not that, he finishes Darbari in fifteen minutes
This is a formal, it is not like that, but that is enough for him, he blessed a couple and that is alright
But that part.. musicians only, audience also didn't understand, I don't blame them but,
At least they are given to understand
Can you say something about how the audiences have changed, in the time that you have been singing
How can I explain that?
See, most people say, before they were knowledgeable, now they are not knowledgeable
But, I am sure you have something different to say
I had written an article, on audience also, there are three types of audiences, a member of the audience is a fan of a particular musician
For example Kumar Gandharv's fan, he goes to that, I like him, according to me I don't like other music. He has every right to say that
You can't blame him, " " he is not concerned with that. He doesn't like it's alright, he is a fan of the man....
Second, one is a knowledgeable musician, who looks for the musical content than the general
Third one is, I don't understand the complicacies of your Raagas,and what they say, when they hit a wrong note or a correct note
You must respect every member of the audience
Including all of these people
He comes to listen to you, he has the right to listen to you in the way what he wants to listen. You can't impose, what does he know about that? Darbari, does he know....
Nobody can say that. If he says I didn't like that. If you ask him, and he has the right to tell you that
On this basis, I had written that, long time back. But, these types of audiences, are there. Formerly also, there were general audience also
Who like music in general and not any Gharana in particular, they used to study that also
What could be the better part in this Gharana and what could be the best in that Gharana
That always, " ", it is customary that if you ask a musician say after two years, he would say, 'in our times it was different and all these things'
But that happens to be that, you can't help it.. If you ask a twenty year boy, what is that, we don't like that, all these things
But, he can't comment on that, we don't know that thing, what was it, so you write and bring to their notice
How can you understand the attitude of the audience then and now. They have not given to understand the what to look for
So, the kind of musical education, people had say in the 50's and 60's (1950-1960) because then they would also watch Sangeet Natak
have an idea of what are the Raags and all, do you feel that is not so common any more?
That is not so common, definitely
People say, I like listening to music, so, I will go and listen
Then, that is always there, but the difference of enjoying music is something different from person to person
That which is not questioned can be " " or Hindustani or Karnatic
Do you recall, I have just been reading, all the old Times of India newspapers, from 1860's very fascinating
Throughout, until about 1950's, they only say Indian Music, no one says Hindustani Music
Do, you remember when the term Hindustani Music came into use?
No, I can't. I won't be able to tell you that
Early, Hindustani music in our sense Carnatic part came into very much in prominence since old age only
So, that is how they started distinguishing Hindustani that is North Indian and Carnatic that is South Indian
It is like that, according to me, what I think, well both are Indian music
Whether it is Carnatic or Hindustani, both are Indian
Most of the programmes in Bombay, in the early twentieth century were North Indian music
So they would just say, Program of Indian music, in the advertisement, and you know it is usually North Indian, once in a while they would have some South Indian
From the list of the artists, you can know that, usually. The riddle would be answered by that
So, I was interested in people earlier who would not say Hindustani/Classical Music
So, they would just say, Khayal or Dhrupad or whatever
It covers that aspect, then it could be Dhrupad or Khayal or any Thumri, light classical or something like that
This terminology sometimes, misguides you also. Sugam Sangeet. What is Sugam Sangeet?
Is it light music? Is it Bhavgeet singing or it is Thumri singing? Or it is Dadra or Kajri or Hori or whatever it is
There are all forms of classical music only but .... a different way, they simplify Raaga and they
You yourself have been in the Guru-Shishya tradition of learning. What is your sense of the many other ways in which people are learning?
Especially in music schools, or the
See, music school is an expansion of music into train him or make him aware what is music
So this is called 'sa' this is called 're', this is called 'ga' and all these technical, technology that student must understand
But, that is ok for a limit. But, not from the musician's point of view. Basically what he understands in school, he has to learn it under a particular Guru or whatever
Not in school, these things are not happening. Because teachers also become Gurus later on or so, with some students
Because, Bombay is one of the places, where since 1890's we have so called music schools
Balakrishnabua Ichalkaranjikar started a music school and others
Vishnu Digambar started in a building there. He brought a building there at Sandhurst road, later on it was sold
Their idea of teaching music was to give a basic understanding to everyone who came there
Vishnu Digambar Paluskar selected such students, the 18-20 students he has selected to perform " "
The bonds also written that, for 20 years, 18 years or 15 years they will stay with him and learn the real form of Music
What they want to learn, not just come here for one year and go away, and started telling them that I am his disciple, not that
he was very strict, because he meant something concrete... job to be done
So, each one was different, if you study Vishnu Digambar's students, that is, Vinayak Rao Patwardhan, Narayan Rao Vyas, Omkarnath Thakur
Ramrao Padhe, they were all different in their rendering, basically they were same
Take a Khayal, they used to render it same but the way they executed it, their performance it was different
Otherwise, they won't their own sense, and that should be the case, you can't be a carbon copy of the Guru
You should not. Otherwise it will become stale, and it should be creative every time. What has been given to you and how you develop that
It differs from time to time. Ocassion to ocassion sometime. Not the same concert in music conference holds good with the
A concert in the music circle program. They are all different
But, certain musicians who have decided hard and rehearse hard they sing the same thing today, tomorrow if you go the same thing
it is polished, then you will say it's good, but unless it is different from a higher point of view, music cannot be stale, cannot be same every day
It has got to... and the artist they should know where to stop and not to stop actually
Indian Music I should say, sometimes it happens, people then have bad impressions
There were few examples, retired, they are old aged but, when they thought that now it is enough
Who are you thinking of? For example
Krishnarao Shankar Pandit for example, his voice never shook, never. Kesarbai Kerkar, Fayyaz Khan all these " " voice quality, reflexes may be less
Taan pattern might be a little slower, whatever it is. Voice wise, they had trained their voice
These days, after 60 if you go' aaaaaaa', it hurts actually
Also, how popular you live for three four years more because of the popularity you had earned in the previous years
But, the artist should realise it himself. That is my point of view, as long as you are able to do, do it
Do justice to it. Otherwise, you should call it a day
Have musicians in your generation, I know you have also done some other work apart from music, so are there many musicians who can actually earn a living and be comfortable
Doing music or they have to have a...
These days? I have my doubts about that because, I have no experience in that
My family supported me a lot, that is important of course. if you are able to do certain things and if you are short of not getting a proper response or
Encouragement, then it dies itself or it's not fair. So my family always supported me
They supported me to do the right thing, I think. Beyond that nothing to say, that is how one can do it otherwise it is not possible
Those were not the days, those who failed in academics used to come to music and learn music
That is what they say,
He does nothing in the school, teach him music
What about your own students? You like teaching?
I like teaching. But, see, the way I have learnt or the way it should be taught, if the student is not upto that thinking
Reflexes might be less, he may take about a month to pick up some things, the other student may take 15 days whatever it is
as long as he is keen on doing it, I don't mind teaching him . There are very few like that
I am not a full time musician, I wasn't rather. Now, I am. That also, is a different thing
People suggest names for training,
So, are you teaching people now?
There are very few students that I teach now, but those who have this value, then I don't mind teaching, I love teaching
But the way they should be taught, not that a student comes here with demands [in Hindi - I have a programme...]
[in Hindi] That cannot happen, I cannot do it, there are others who can do this
That is how, music gets diluted. In scholastic institution it gets diluted and who comes out of a music school as a musician?
He, calls or she calls. Technically it is very difficult to find a musicologist and musician in the same person
Would you say that Deodharji was a musicologist?
He was
He regretted to me also, once I wanted to become a musician but what to do, I could not. He regretted that also
But he could sing, he could sing quite well
He could sing, but,
And Ashok Ranade, would you see him as a musicologist?
Yes he is a musicologist
I know him mostly as a musicologist, I have hardly heard him sing
He used to sing. Right from " " and then Gajanan Rao Joshi then Deodhar
I heard that he still used to do a lot of riyaaz, even in order to write about music
He was a versatile person he was, it is a sad loss to Indian music actually
Do you go much to concerts these days?
Well, healthwise, it doesn't permit me that much. But, sometimes I go
Not as much as, I used to go previously, in my formation days. I was very keen
I have seen you mostly in Karnatak Sangha, I go there and
In college days, when I used to tour with D.V. Paluskar my demonstrator once said, 'Mr. Sathe, your final exams of B.Sc are approaching'
'Lots of practical exams have been added, when are you going to do all of this, you are doing only music
So, I replied to him, 'I know the cross sections, vertical sections, of botany or whatever it is, they are the same every year'
Not the music, If I miss today, next year I wont get the same. So let me do that, I will do this also, I did it
Where did you travel with your Guruji?
Plenty of places, Patiala I had gone, Muzaffarpur, Patna, Kolkata, Chennai had three concerts within a period of one and half year
He was very popular, that time it was Madras, and several places in Maharasthra
So, you travelled by train?
Train, bus whatever. Not bus, where there was no access by train by bus
But it was always enjoyable travelling with him,
Lots of things can be imbibed by your association, Guruji had said once, that was a very good quotation was he said,
"If you want to know your Guruji well, you should stay with him permanently, then you can catch him in his unguarded moments"
Then, you will learn something. That's true. What he does, his thinking and everything is applicable to music
Where are you performing these days?
Just had a performance in Pune, private concert
Last week of June, before that in October, I had also performed in Pune, very few concerts are there
Recently, you know that I got a government award this year for Kantha Sangeet, according to the government in bracket it is 'Gaayan'
Gaayaki, Tautology
Function was held in Ravindra Natya Mandir,
No, I was not aware of it, if I am in town I usually go to all the meetings
I get that Huzur Bandanawaz, all the announcements, they are sent no, in email so, I usually read that
and when I am in Bombay, so, here are the
You come here once a month
I come once a month, it is not a fixed time but usually at least one week I came here
Who else have you interviewed, if I am not too inquisitive?
Around, also because I try to study a little bit from Neela, Neela, Nandu, then Arvind Parikh among the performing musicians
Then, I talked to Aneesh Pradhan, and Deepak Raja. So I am looking at different kind of people not only performers
But then you get a different picture of also, what one believes music is
Ya, I know, Deepak Raja is quite knowledgeable
No day is late, actually, as you say, as I told you, I started in the age of 17-18
When learning of music is concerned, but then I had no problem with my voice and all this kind
Each one is given with some blessing, depends how you cultivate that, make the right decision
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