Alize_Turkish
Duration: 00:25:24; Volume: 0.141; Words per Minute: 113.511
R: Hi Alize.
Welcome.
A: Hi.
Laugh together.
Toronto, Canada
R: So, you're going to teach me the...the phrase from Razia Sultan in Turkish today.
A: Mm hm.
R: Laughs.
A: Laughs.
I'll do my best.
R: I'll do my best too. Please...your patience is very welcome.
As always. You're so patient with me.
A: Laughs. So, I should just start?
R: Yeah.
A: Ok. I'll just say it once all the way through and then maybe we can go word by word.
R: Perfect.
A: ve kimin vükutu, fed a karlilrdan yaralanini hesaba alinabilir
R: Ok. That has quite...
A: Laughs.
R: ...quite some length to it.
Laughs.
A: Uh huh.
R: Laughs.
A: It's a complicated, poetic phrase. What can I say?
R: It's true.
A: And I was trying to...you know, work with it in a way that could still hold that poetic character.
R: Right on.
A: Mm hm.
R: And, I know you had a resource...that...you thought you had a resource and she didn't come through for you.
Laughs.
A: Well, my mom and I...in the past, she's helped me with translation.
In the past...and so I was hoping I'd get to sort of run it by her and see what she'd want...what she thought.
Um...but intead, I just, you know...did my best. Laughs.
R: You jumped right in.
A: Yup.
R: Ok. Well, um...how do you think I could learn it most easily?
R: Chuckles.
A: Phrase by phrase?
R: Sure.
A: Word by word?
R: Yeah...maybe word by word.
A: What works...what works for you?
R: Well, I find that my memory is extremely short.
I can only retain 3, 4 words at a time, and then I usually lose them when the next phrase comes up.
A: Ok.
R: So, maybe phrase by phrase...and we could sort of see how it goes.
A: My sense would be to...you know, try and go kind of word by word through the whole thing,
and then maybe break it into maybe, 3 chunks.
R: Great. I love that idea.
A: And we'll just do some repetition.
R: Ok.
A: Ok...ve kimin
R: ...v'kimen?
A: ve kimin
R: v...ve kiy-men
A: Good....vükutu
R: ...vij...vijudeh
A: ...vükutu
R: ...vuj-vujudeh
A: So good.
R: Uh...
A: ...ve kimin...ve kimin vükutu
R: ...ve kiy-men vujudeh
A: ...ve kimin vükutu
R: ...ve kimen vujudeh
A: Pretty darn good.
The 'veh' is a little more 'eh'. Like, imagine there's an 'h' on the end.
A: ...veh
R: ...veh
A: Yeah...veh kimin
R: ...veh...veh kimin
vejudeh
A: Good.
R: Wow. Ok.
A: That's the first 3 words.
R: ...veh...veh...veh k...veh...veh kimin vejudeh
A: ...vu-jud-eh
R: ...vu...vu-jud-eh
A: Yeah.
R: So, it's all... like, in the front of the mouth and vibrating in the lips.
A: Yeah. Vuh...
R: ...vu...vuhjudeh
A: We have this 'vuh' sound.
R: ...vu...can I hear that sound again?
A: ...vuh
R: ...vuh
A: ...vükutu
R: ...vihjuden
A: Mm.
R: Awesome.
A: Are you ready for the next?
R: Yeah.
A: Ok. This one's going to be hard.
Laugh together.
A: ...fed a karlilrdan
R: ...feydah...feydah...kya?
...kyar?
A: karlil...
R: ...luk
A: ...dan
R: ...daan
R: ...feydah kyar luk daan
A: ...fed a karlilrdan
R: ...feydah kyar luk daan
A: ...fed a karlilrdan
R: I can totally hear what you're doing.
And, it's really hard for me to try to make my...
A: Laughs.
R: 'Cuz it feels like it's in my throat...
A: No. It's like this long...the 'aah' is like, 2 a's with an h on the end.
You know? It's like: ...feydYAH...feyDAH
kYAAH
kYAAH
kYAAHR luk daan
R: ...feydAH kYA...kYAHR luk daan
A: Mm hm. ...fed a karlilrdan
R: ...feydah kyar luk daan
A: Chuk ze! That's really good.
R: Really?
A: Yes.
R: I can...I can totally hear that I'm not getting it...umm...
A: You're just...you're real close.
R: Ok. Awesome.
R: ...feydah...feydah kyAHr luk daan
If I hold my throat, it actually helps.
A: Great. Hold your throat.
Laugh together.
A: Sorry...
R: It's ok. This is what it's all about.
A: (unclear)....blushing
R: I'm blushing too.
A: Ok. So...laughs.
R: Moving on.
A: So, you got that one. We'll do another word.
R: Ok.
A: ...yaralar
R: ...yar alar
A: ...yaralar
R: ...yar alar
A: That's it.
R: Wow...ok.
A: ...fed a karlilrdan yaralar
R: ...fidyah kyahr luk...kyar luk jaan?
A: ...daan
R: ...daan
...f...ok...one more time?
Sorry.
A: ...fed a karlilrdan yaralar
R: ...feydah kyahr luk daan yar alar
A: Great.
R: Meh. Meh meh.
A: It's pretty good!
R: 'Kay.
A: Turkish is hard. People usually sound like crap when they try.
R: Yeah? What...
A: Yeah. You're doing good.
R: What do you think...how would you define the difficulty if you had to put words to it?
...for English speakers.
A: Mmm...I think, like...I think there's just some different sounds that we have.
And, the cadence...like, the rhythm is different.
And, some of the words are really long.
R: Mm.
A: So, for instance, like...'fed a karlilrdan' is one word.
R: Oh! That's one word.
A: Yup.
R: Amazing. Ok.
A: Um...are you ready for the, uh...
R: Yup.
A: I'm sort of on the fence about this last word.
R: Ok. How come you're on the fence?
R: Laughs. Another 'double entendre'...
A: I mean...laughs...
So, I have: ...hesaba...hesaba alinabilir
or, ...hesaba olahbilayr
A: ...alinabilir is like...hesaba alinabilir...
I'm trying to translate 'can be reckoned'
R: Oh.
A: You know? And, 'reckoned' is like...kind of tricky.
R: Mm hm.
R: And it's... and it's sort of...
A: So, the word 'hesaba' is like, kind of like...
Ugh...I don't even know what I would call it.
Umm...
R: Well, you know...
A: It's just...
R: When...when we were translating it...
Like, when Ashok and Shaina were translating it for me in person vs. over the internet...
Um, that was the word that we...we had about a half hour conversation about it.
A: Exhales...right?
R: Right? 'Cuz it's not...I don't think that English has the r...the exact word. So...
A: No.
R: Some of the things that they threw around were: ah...'enumerated'...
A: Mm hm.
R: Um...'reckoned' is what we settled on because the sense was that these...the...the wounds of sacrifice were visible to those who could read it.
Or, who were open to seeing those wounds.
A: Hm.
R: And so 'reckoned' had that kind of...um...
A: Hm.
R: ...relational sense to it, as opposed to enumerated which felt more, um...scientific somehow, I guess?
A: Right.
R: Does that help when you're thinking about which word?
R: Also, it's fine to have more than one translation.
Like, Marí gave me 3 Spanish translations of this phrase.
A: Yeah.
R: So, you know...I'm not attached to one...
A: So, (unclear)...heseba...
But it's interesting, like...because 'hesab...hesab' is sort of like,
'calculate'
R: Mm.
A: ...'compute', 'count up'...
R: Mm hm.
A: But, also...like, 'reckon'.
R: Mm hm.
A: ...'assume', 'count', 'consider', 'enumerate'...
Like, you know...it's sort of, like...
A: ...but, I think when we think about 'reckoned'...you know? It isn't...
Yeah. I just...I don't think the word really exists.
R: Yeah. And, I think a lot of English speakers use the other definition of 'reckoned', which has more to do with thought and thinking.
R: You know?
A: 'hesaba' is sort of like, 'account'.
R: I think that's it...I really...from what I...
A: But the word that I'm struggling with actually is 'alinabilir' or 'olahbilir'...
A: I guess, 'olahbilirr' is 'can be' and 'alinabilir' is...is... 'can be...can be taken'.
A: 'can be taken on'
R: Mmmm
A: But, I think maybe...technically it would be more appropriate to say: 'hesaba olahbilir'.
But, for me somehow, 'alinabilir' feels more poetically inclined about...sort of, 'taking on a reckoning'.
R: Yeah.
A: Exhales. Interesting.
R: That's some deep stuff, my friend.
A: Laughs. Right? Like...
R: 'Cuz you're a poet. That's why.
A: Yeah, like...'whose'...you know...if I think about 'whose wounds' and 'whose body has many wounds'...
Like, then being 'born out of sacrifice can be...can be reckoned'.
You know, like...
A: There's this process of like, taking on.
R: Mm hm.
A: For me, that I think about 'reckoning' with someone's pain.
R: Mm hm.
A: Uh huh. Laughs.
R: Wow. You...you're transporting me right now.
I...I go with that one!
A: Ok. Let's go with 'alinabilir' 'cuz that's sort of, like...and, it may be wrong, you know?
Watch my mother walk in the door and be like... 'no'.
Laugh together.
R: That would totally happen, too.
R: But, she would do it lovingly.
A: She'd do it...she'd do it so lovingly.
R: With so much love.
A: Ok.
R: Ok...so, let's go with the - I can't say it yet - but you know which one I mean.
A: ...alinabilir
R: ...aluna...alunabilayr
A: a-l-u-na...
R: Oh...alu...alin...ach
...alina
A: aluNA-bilir
R: aluna...aluNA
A: ...bilir
R: ...bilayrh
A: ...bilir
R: How do...
A: It's like: a l i n a b i l i r
R: Ok...the...the 'b i l i r' - I see breath moving from the back of your mouth to the front.
Is that what's happening?
A: (to herself) alinabilir
A: Yeah. Totally.
That 'rr' is sort of like a breath moving forward.
And, it's not a hard 'r'.
It's like a: 'birr'
R: Oh. What a great sound!
A: There's like a breathy-ness to it.
Yeah.
R: ...b...baayr
R: ...aluna...aluna...bilaayr
A: Laughs.
R: I'm not even close. It's pathetic.
But, I really hear it. I just can't..
A: ...alinabilir
A: ...alinabilir
R: ...alunabilarrh
R: Tsk...alunabilayr.
Agh.
A: ....alina...alinabilir
R: Hmph.
...alunabi..bilayrrh
A: ...bilir
R: ...bileer...biliayr
A: ...bilir
R: ...biliaayrh
Laugh together
R: Now you're flirting with me with the word 'reckoned'!
A: I'm not flirting. Laughs.
R: ...bilayr
A: ...bilir
R: ...biliaayr
A: Oh! That was good.
R: Agh. But...
A: You really got into it.
A: Close those eyes.
R: Ok.
A: Laughs.
R: ...biliyr
A: alinabilir
R: ...alunabiliyr. Tsk. It's...it's...
I can really hear what I'm not doing.
And it's just difficult for me to make my mouth do it.
A: Well...
A: I bet. It sounds really beautiful coming through you.
R: Thank you for saying that.
A: Uh huh. Yeah. And even though it's like...it sounds, off...
R: Yeah.
A: It's off, but...but there's a beauty in it.
R: Well...
A: In an off-kilter nature, or something...
R: Yeah. I mean, I know we could talk about this for hours and we probably will, but...
R: This concept of having an 'accent', right?
A: Mm hm.
R: What are your thoughts...'cuz obviously like...you know, in English...ah, living where we do and...
and with the political consciousness that we have...
...we don't judge someone who sounds like English isn't their first language, right?
But, what's your sense with Turkish?
Is there a real divide for people who have it as a second or third language?
A: Hm. I mean, I don't really know.
I think I can speak of my experience as someone with an accent, you know...when I speak Turkish.
R: Right.
A: I have an accent. You know, and I do really well.
You know, it's a very ha...you know, challenging language for most people for whom it's not their native...
R: Yeah.
A: ...you know, their first langauge, Mother Tongue.
A: Um, but people always thinks it's really cute too.
R: Uh huh.
A: I mean it's especially men. They're like: oh, it's kind of cute.
It's kind of sexy, you know.
You know, you're like...it's a little off.
I think people are generally, just like, so grateful that I can speak to them.
R: Right, right.
A: They are kind of amazed.
Because it's such an uncommon language, too.
R: Yeah, yeah.
A: To have a foreigner speak. To have a foreigner, like... put time into learning.
R: RIght.
A: You know, it only exists in this one part of the world, really.
I mean, there's some in Turkmen...Turkmenistan, there are Turkish speakers in Iraq, in Iran, you know?
But like, Turkish itself is sort of this little spot. It's not like some other languages that are so widespread.
R: Right. Exactly.
R: But isn't there a sense of the diaspora?
A: So, I don't know...I don't know if there would be a kind of prejudice.
R: Mm hm.
A: I feel...I'm going to say that my sense of me is that there wouldn't be a prejudice in the way there are in some other contexts.
...cultural contexts with language aquisition.
R: Mm hm.
A: It's so unexpected that anyone would have aquired the language...
R: Mm hm.
A: ...that people are generally just more, like, intrigued and appreciative that someone has made the effort.
R: Interesting.
A: Mm hm. That's my sense.
A: And so, yeah...yeah.
R: ...alunabilayr
A: ...alinabilir
R: ...alinabilayr
A: ...alinabilir
R: ...alinabilayyr...bilayyrh.
Tsk.
A: ...alina-bilir
R: ...alinabilayr. Mm.
A: You're going long on that '...ayr'.
R: Yeah.
A: I want you to shorten it up: ...alinabilir
R: ...alunabilir
A: Oh, hi Mommy!
Nikki: Hi!
R: Giggles.
A: So...um...laughs.
R: Yeah, baby!
A: I'm going to invite her in.
R: Please.
A: We're doing a little live, um...performance right now.
On the internet with TPW. Reena's asked me to translate a phrase into Turkish.
I was hoping to get... to talk to you before I was doing it.
N: Oh.
A: And so, I've translated it.
N: Ok.
A: And I wonder, you know...if I've...you know, touched it...
A: ...and whose body many wounds of sacrifice can be reckoned.
And this is what I've written:
N: Hm...and whose body many wounds of sacrifice can be
A: ...recokoned.
A: Like, that part...eh?
N: Oooh...reckoned.
A: ...reckoned.
N: Ay yay. Oh, I don't know, Reena.
ve kimin...vujundu ...vujunduda
A: It should be...
together: vujundunda?
vujujunda
vuju-dun-da
A: I can't read that.
together: vuju-jun-da
N: Ah...
A: ...fed a karlik
N: ...yaralarsh hesaba alinabilir
A: And now, I'm toying with this 'alinabilir' or 'olahbilir'.
N: ...olabilir
A: 'Cuz technically, 'hesaba olahbiliar' seems, like... appropriate...
A: But then, I like this idea of 'alinabilir' of kind of like, 'taking it on'?
N: ...reckoned
N: ...on whose body: ve kimin vejudunda
(Reena increases speaker volume)
N: ...the wounds of sacrifice: fed a karlilrdan
...fed a karlilrdan yaralar
N: ...hesaba
N: Oh. I think 'alinibilar' is better.
A: Yeah?
N: Yeah. Yeah.
A: Oh, great. I love that.
R: Wow! What an affirmation.
(A and N talking in background)
A: It's such an affirmation.
R: Hi!
N: Hi.
R: How are you?
N: Are you in Ottawa?
R: I'm...I'm in Gatineau.
N: Ok.
R: I'm coming to Toronto tomorrow.
N: Alright. Sorry. I won't turn this into a social. Ok.
R: We'll see you soon!
N: Ok. Bye bye. I'm outta here.
A: Ok. No problem.
R: Thank you!
A: So, you think it's...so you think I did alright?
N: Yeah, yeah. You did very good.
A: Thank you.
N: Yeah. Ok.
A: Tisha kula.
A: Ok. Yukulnat kortrus.
N: (unclear)
A: Ok. Yahadishid.
(door closes)
A: Oh my god, that was so lovey!
A: Laughs.
R: I'm so happy right now.
A: I'm really happy.
R: Laughs.
A: It was just like a little correction and she...affirmed that my instinct was right.
R: Yeah, that is a serious prop...to get from your mom?
A: Totally.
R: Come on, you guys could do a whole book together.
A: I know. Well, she's helped me translate poetry in the past.
R: Amazing.
A: Um...and, I think there's, you know... much more work to be done there together.
R: Yup.
R: Listen, I'm just aware that at Gallery TPW people are probably gathering, 'cuz they're having a talk in 10 minutes.
A: Mm hm.
R: But it's been such a lovely and unique session, maybe we could, just...like, cap it off with going back and forth?
'Cuz I don't think I'll remember...
...I don't think I'll remember the full phrase but it's so nice just to try the sounds and do my best with them.
A: Well...
R: Would you be okay with that?
A: Yeah. Let's just go back to that.
I know we've just digressed into chatting.
R: Yeah.
A: So, let's...let's go back and we'll just do the phrases.
R: Ok. And then, we'll probably have to say goodbye 'cuz...you know,
A: Right.
R: ...we have to give them a moment to set up, but...
A: Totally.
R: Ok.
A: Hadijan.
R: Hadijan.
A: Ok. So, now we have to learn a new one:
'...ve kimin vijudinda'
A: vijudinda...vij-uh-din-da
R: vijudinda
R: vij...ve kimin vijudinda
A: Uh huh... vE kimin...
R: ...vEH kiymin
R: ...vijudinda
A: Yup. And remember there's like, an 'h' on the end: 'veh'
R: ...veh...vEH
together: kimin
R: ...veh...
A: ...vijudinda
R: ...veh kimin vijudinda
A: Tscoksa.
...ve kimin vijudinda
R: ...veh ki...ve kimin vijudinda
A: 'Kay. And now that big 'f' one:
R: Laughs.
A: ...fed a karlilrdan
R: ...feed a...feed a kyarluk-dan
A: ...fed a karlilrdan
R: ...fed a kyaarlukdan
A: ...fed a karlilrdan
R: ...fed a kyarlilrdan
A: karlilrdan
R: kyarlilrdan
A: Good.
A: ...fed a karlilrdan
R: ...fed a karlilrdan
A: ...yarala
R: ...yaralar
A: ...yarala
R: ...yaRala
A: 'Kay...hesaba
R: ...hey-saba
A: ...hesaba
R: ...hesaba
A: ...alinabilir
R: ...aluna-bilayr
A: ...alinabilir
R: ...aluna-bilayrh
R: Tsk...alunabilirh
A: ...alu-lu
R: ...aluh-aleh
R: Tsk.
A: ...alu- Uh
R: ...alih-uh
togehter: ...alih-uh
A: Let's just work on that sound.
R: Ok.
A: ...aluhhhhh
R: ...alih-aluh...tsk.
R: I'm...
A: ...uhhhh
R: Is it back here?
Back at the back of the throat?
A: Uhhhh...yeah.
It's sort of like, back-side. Near your...
...aluuuhhh
R: ...aluhhhh...aluhhh
A: Look at the shape of my mouth.
It's like: ...alluhhh
A: It's like, you're kind of like, pulling the sides down and back.
R: ...alu....aluuuh
A: Cracks up.
laugh together
R: But, I'm starting to feel that.
There's muscles there. I've never used those.
R: ...aluuh...aluuh
A: ...alinabilir
R: ...alinabilayr
R: Tsk.
A: Oh! That was good. It's still that end bit, though.
R: I know. I hear what I'm doing. I'm just trying to roll the 'r'.
But, that's not required.
A: Mm.
R: ...a...aluna...
A: Let's work on that.
A: bi...
R: bih...
A: bi...
R: bih...
A: bi...yeah.
A: Close.
R: bih...
A: bi...
R: beh...bih...
A: bi...
A: bi...
R: bih...
A: There you go. Perfect.
A: bir...
R: beerh...beerh
A: Yeah! Yeah.
R: Really?
A: Yeah, yeah.
I mean...it's that shift from...'cuz you've been going: 'beh-rh'
R: Yeah.
A: What you want is: 'bir'
R: beerh...beerh.
A: Yeah.
R: ...alunabilayr
A: Akh. You did it again.
R: Laughs.
A: ...alinabilir
A: Sorry for that sound.
R: No, it's fine.
A: Such a good job.
Such a good job.
R: ...alunabilirh...tsk....alunabilir
A: ...aluuhh...alinabilir
R: ...aluna...alunabilir
A: You just wanna say: 'beeeeyrh/bayrh'.
You like it.
A: Laughs.
R: ...bir
R: ...beer
A: ...bir
A: Yeah.
R: ...bir
R: ...alunabilir
A: ...alinabilir
R: ...alun...alunabilir
A: ...aluuuna-bilir
R: ...aluuuna-biliyr
A: Right, it's that...
R: Ach! I'm so frustrated with myself, 'cuz I can absolutely hear what I'm doing wrong.
A: Mm hm.
R: It's the c... amazing amount of control.
A: Mm.
R: Like, I really feel these muscles in the front of my mouth, and my neck.
A: Mm hm.
R: But, I think I have to...I have to say that I'll work on it and maybe next time we hang out I can...
R: ...try it, but I don't think I'm gonna get it in the next 60 seconds.
A: You're doing really really good though.
R: Yeah, it's beautiful for me to listen and then really try.
And then, the failure is just part of the practice, part of the experience.
A: (unclear)
R: But I know...I can hear what I'm not getting.
A: And, it's really beau...beautiful to offer it to you.
And to see you, like...engage in this process of, like...um...
A:...like, coming closer and closer and closer.
Kind of, you know, like inviting something in.
Right? And the closer you get, the...
A: Yeah...I mean...so, I really appreciate the giving process and hearing you give it back.
And then the ...the nuance of how it shifts the more you try.
You know? And, how we become more comfortable with the thing through repetition.
And I love to hear people speak my language.
No one can ever speak my language.
R: Yeah.
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