Mumbai Music: Dhondutai Kulkarni
Director: Surabhi Sharma; Cinematographer: Ajay Noronha
Duration: 01:14:11; Aspect Ratio: 1.778:1; Hue: 23.740; Saturation: 0.225; Lightness: 0.229; Volume: 0.070; Cuts per Minute: 0.297; Words per Minute: 172.400
Summary: Dhondutai Kulkarni speaks about her discipleship with Kesarbai Kerkar and with Alladiya Khan's family, and her career as a major exponent of the Jaipur Atrauli gharana.
Making Music
TN: Bahut khushi ki baat hai ke aapke saath hum baat kar rahe hai. Pehle aapka woh taalim ke baare mein poochna chahte hai hum. Kab shuru kare, kahan shuru kare kiske saath pehle aap Hindustani Sangeet sikhne shuru kiya?
( We are very happy to speak to you. Firstly, we want to ask you about your training, when did you start, where did you start and who did you first learn music with? )
DK: Me pahilyanda Kolhapurat aamhi hoto. Kolhapurat mhajya vadalna khoop shauk hota aana tyana swathalach shikaicha hota pan te tyana kahi grahasti mule shikta aala nahi tar tyani tharavla je mala pahila mool hoeel tyala me gaana shikveen aani ti paali mhajyavar aali.
( We were in Kolhapur. When we were there my father was very fond of learning music but because of his family life he couldn't learn music so he decided when he has his first child he will teach him/her and the onus was on me.
Tab, aamache... majhe vadil pahilyanda gaana shikle thodasa tabla hi shikle vagere parantu log mhanaiche ke isko ka gaana kehta hai? Yeh tabla? aise nahi hai magar yeh kya karna chahiye toh bade logon ke paas sikhna chahiye. Toh Kolhapur mein bade log kaun hai? Alladiya Khan Saheb yeh Jaipur Atrauli gharane ke foundation... tar tyancha kade shikna tar me lahaanch hote magar te Alladiya Khan Saheb che dhakte mulge Bhurji Khan Saheb Mahalakshmi mandir madhye gayala jaat hote mandirat ek adha ghanta uske arti ke pehle. Woh pehle gaate the.
( So, our... my father learnt to sing a little, he also learnt a bit of tabla but people used to say, do you call this singing? This tabla? This is not how it is, one should learn from the seniors. So who were the seniors in Kolhapur? Alladiya Khan Saheb, the founder of Jaipur Atrauli gharana. I was too young to learn from him but his younger son Bhurji Khan saheb he used to sing at Mahalakshmi temple for half an hour before the prayers. He would sing before that)
TN: Kya gaate the? ( What would he sing?)
DK: Shastriya Sangeet... woh light nahi ( Classical Music)
TN: Bhajan nahi? ( Not devotional songs?)
DK: Nahi...bhajan nahi, light nahi Shastriya sangeet hi gaate the toh woh sunne ke liye majhe vadil mala devlaat roz gehun jaiche. Mahalakshmicha darshan ghayaycha aani tyancha gaana aikaicha. Tar te Bhurji Khan Saheb mahjyakade hasun baghaiche vagere. Tar ek diwas majhya vadalni tyaana vicharla ki tumhi majhya mulila gaana shikvata ka?
( No, not devotional or light music. He would sing classical music, so my father would take me along to the Mahalakshmi temple. We would take Mahalakshmi's blessings and then listen to his music. Bhurji Khan would smile at me. So one day my father asked him, Will you teach my daughter?)
DK: Tar te mhanale itni si choti hai main kya bolta yeh bhi inke dhyaan mein nahi ayega ( So he said she's so small, she won't understand what I say.)
TN: Umar kya tha? ( What was your age?)
DK: Main paanch saal ki thi. Humare Pitaji ne kuch bura nahi mana magar roj hum kuch sunne ke liye le jaate the. Main jab 12-13 saal ki ho gayi oos waqt Bhurji Khan Saab humare ghar aaye aur phir kehne lage ke main aaj se inko gaana sikhaoonga. Maine itne din aapko kya kahan itni fee kahan ke mujhe maloom the ke aap dene waale nahi hai, aap de sakte nahi main lene waala nahi. Toh mere Pitaji ko kahan ke tumko anand se jo aap mujhe dena chahte hai denge woh de main aaj se yeh ladki ko gaana sikhaoonga aur meri umar us saal ki 13-14 saal ki thi toh us din se mera gaana shuru ho gaya.
( I was 5. My father did not feel bad about what he said but he would take me everyday to listen to music. When I was 12 or 13 Bhurji Khan Saab came to our house and said I will teach her music from today. All these days I didn't tell you about the fees because I knew you won't give and you wouldn't be able to give. I won't take any fees. He said you can give me what you want out of happiness. I will teach her music from today. I was about 13-14 and from that day I started singing.
DK: Baad mein.... 50 saal tak woh zinde the 50 saal tak mein sikhti rahi meri guruji ki umar 50 saal ki thi tab tak toh sikhti rahi baad mein kiske paas sikhna jab woh gujar gaye toh phir kinke paas sikhna gaana? Toh phir idhar udhar, idhar udhar thoda bahut dekha magar woh toh jama nahi. Woh mere mamaji ka, mamaji Hyderabad mein rehte the aur unke dawai ki factory thi. Toh unko baal bacche nahi the toh humko hi baal bacche samajte the.
( He lived for 50 years and I learnt with my guru till my guru turned 50, I was learning with him. So after he passed away I didn't know whom to learn from? So I looked here and there I looked around but nothing worked out. My maternal uncle lived in Hyderabad and he had a pharmaceutical factory. He didn't have any kids so considered us as his children.)
DK: Te mere bhai ko Benaras ko BPharm karne ke liye bheja tha woh karkhana chalane ke liye toh hum donho behene bhi Hyderabad chale gaye. Te 50' se 57' saal tak mera gaana bandh tha, 57' saal ke baad yeh hi gharane ke Laxmibai Jadhav woh apna... woh darbar Baroda darbar gayika thi.... toh woh... woh chod ke woh Kolhapur mein aake rahi. Toh main bhi Hyderabad chod ke Kolhapur aayi unke paas shikne shuru kiya. Gharana humara ek hi tha magar woh Haider Khan Saab ke paas sikhti thi Alladiya Khan Saab ke chote bhai.
My brother was sent to Benaras for his BPharm and to run that factory, so both of us sisters went to Hyderabad. So from the year 50' to 57' my singing had stopped after 57'. Lakshmibai Jadhav from the same gharana...she was a singer in the Baroda darbar, she left that and came to Kolhapur. So I left Hyderabad and came to Kolhapur to learn from her. Our gharana was the same but she learnt from Haider Khan Saab. Alladiya Khan Saab's younger brother.)
TN: Aur Laxmibai ka guru kaun tha? ( Who was Laxmibai's teacher?)
DK: Haider Khan, Haider Khan guru the toh unke paas kaafi sikhi thi toh unke paas unka naam bhi bahut tha. Toh unke paas main kareeb kareeb 57 te 60 saal tak. Mujhe Delhi ki scholarship mili thi aur woh 3 saal mein main unke paas sikhi. Aur oos waqt Alladiya Khan Saab ke pote Azizuddin Khan Saab te unke paas bhi sikhti thi. Aise dono ko sikhne ke baad toh Alladiya Khan saheb ke jo pote the toh unko aisa laga ke mere Dadaji ne inko Kesarbai ko gaana jo sikhaya toh unke saath chala ja raha hai.
( Haider Khan was her teacher. She learnt a lot from him and he was very well known. So I learnt with her from the year 57' to 60'. I got a scholarship from Delhi and for those 3 years I learnt from her. Alladiya Khan Saab's grandson Azizuddin Khan Saab I was learning from his as well at that time. After learning from both of them, Alladiya's grandson felt that whatever his grandfather taught Kesarbai it will end with her)
Kesarbai ne ek bhi ladki ko gaana sikhana shuru nahi kiya tha, te inke saath sab ja rahe hai toh phir kya karenge? Toh Dadar Matunga Circle mein Kesarbai ka gana hua gaana hone ke baad Loksatte ke sampadak Mahajan yeh the, toh unhone bola ke aapka gaana sunne ke baad Alladiya Khan Saab ki yaad aati hai magar aapke peeche kya? Peeche kaun? Toh oos waqt unko toh accha nahi laga unko yeh bolne ke liye toh unhone yeh hi bola ke, Mahajan Saab aaj sikhe kal oos waqt TV nahi tha kal radio mein gaanewale Ustad ban sakte hai kya?
( Kesarbai had not started teaching a single girl and everything was going to go with her, so what should one do? There was a performance of Kesarbai at Dadar Matunga Circle. After the performance the editor of Loksatta Mahajan said your music reminds me of Alladiya Khan Saab, but what after you? Who is left behind? She didn't like what he said then, she said Mahajan Saab they will learn today but tomorrow - there was no TV back then - the ones who sing on radio can they become masters?)
DK: Jaise main sikhi, jaise maine mehnat kiya waise koi tayyar ho to mere laake abhi de do main sikhaongi toh oos waqt toh koi aaya nahi unke paas tab tak toh sab bahut gaanewali ladkiyan unke paas jaakar aayi thi magar kisko, sabko unhone nah hi bola toh baad mein Alladiya Khan Saheb ke pote ne mujhe chitti likhi ki oos waqt main Maharashtra mein bhi nahi thi Jabalpur mein thi. Ke mera bhai bhi sab Jabalpur mein the, sablog.
( Just like I learnt, the way I worked hard if you know anyone like that please bring her to me I'll teach her, so that time no one came to her a lot of girls had gone to her to learn music but she refused to teach anyone. Later I received a letter from Alladiya Khan Saab's grandson. I was not in Mahrashtra at the time I was in Jabalpur. Even my brother was in Jabalpur, everyone.)
Toh unhone bola ke aap try karo inke paas, aap chitthi likho inko ke main sikhne ke liye tayaar hoon aap shikhane ke liye tayyar ho? Toh main Bambai aa jaoongi. Toh oos waqt mujhe laga ke yeh chitti ka jawab hi nahi aanewala meri chitti apni ker ki topli mein jayegi. Magar unki chitti aayi, aur unhone likha tha ki itne logo ke paas sikhe huyi aapko aise nahi lagta ki ban chuke. Yeh baat mujhe bahut pasant aayi. Tu Bambai aaya kar.
( So he said that you should try, you write her a letter that I am willing to learn, will you teach me? Then I will come to Bombay. That time I felt I will not get a reply for my letter and that it will go in the dust bin. But I got a letter from her, and she had written that after learning with so many people you still don't feel you have achieved it. I like that a lot. You should come to Bombay.
TN: Marathi mein likha or Hindi mein likhe? Woh Kesarbai?
( It was written in Marathi or was it in Hindi? Kesarbai?)
DK: Marathi mein, Marathi mein. Toh phir main aur mere Pitaji hum log Bambai aa gaye aur oos din Kesarbai ka gaana Birla Matoshree Sabagruha mein tha. Toh aur Kolhapur ke hum Alladiya Khan Saheb ke pote the Azizuddin Khan toh unko bhi bulaya tha hum logo ne toh woh jaake Kesarbai ko andar jaake green room mein mile
( In Marathi, in marathi. So father and me came to Bombay and that day Kesarbai was performing at Birla Matoshree Sabhagruha and from Kolhapur Alladiya Khan Saheb's grandson Azizuddin Khan we had called him so we went inside the green room to meet Kesarbai)
Toh unhone bole, Kya baba tum kaise aaye? Baba kehte the unko sab. Kya baba tum kaise aaye? Ha main bhi aaya hoon aur Dhondu bhi aayi, unke pitaji bhi aaye hai. Toh unhone keh unnko andar bulao toh unhone bola aap peeche gaane ke liye leonge ke kya? Toh Kesarbai ko jara tazeb laga ki unko itni jabardast khaatri thi ke main unke peeche gaa sakti hai. Toh unhone bola ke theek hai le aayi ye, main leti hoon peeche usko.
( So she asked him, Baba how did you come? Everyone called him Baba. He said, yes I have come and Dhondu has also come with her father. So she said bring them inside, so he asked her will you let her sing? So Kesarbai was surprised that he was so sure that I would sing in the background. So she said okay bring her. I will let her sing in the background.)
DK: Toh main aane ke baad mujhe pao se sir tak sab aise kar ke dekha. Baad mein kya gaaogi kya mere peeche? Maine kahan ke jo aap mere jo raag aate hai woh aap gayenge toh thoda bahut prayatna karongi. Arrey falana raag toh sab logo ko aate hai toh raag ka naam nahi hai falana magar falana bole toh yeh cheez aisi mamuli hai yeh raagasab log gaate hai toh tumko toh aata hi hoga. Toh maine ha bola.
( So when I came in, she took a good look at me from head to toe, and then she asked me will you sing in the background? I said if you sing the raags I know I will try. She said everyone knows this and that raag this is very ordinary, everyone sings this raag, so you will know this. So I said yes.)
DK:Toh baad mein pehli baar main jab aayi toh ekdum unke peeche hi baithi gaane ke liye aur oos din main... unki ho gayi thi main jab aayi tab unki umar 62.. nahi 72 thi 72 toh unhone bola ke apne gharane mein taalim kaise dete hai tumko malum hai magar itni toh taalim main umar ke hisaab se de sakongi ke nahi sakongi mujhe malum nahi magar hum dekhenge.
( So first time when I came I sat right behind her to her.. she had grown older, when I came she was 62... no 72, 72 she told me you know how the training is in our gharana whether I can train you like that at this age I'm not sure but we will see.)
DK: Toh phir dusre din unke ghar unhone bulaya tha humlog gaye. Toh unke ghar ke sab log sab darwaze se meri taraf dekh rahe the ke yeh kaun ladki hai kal inke peeche vagere sab. Phir unhone kaha theek hai abhi yeh karo toh pehle hum log aake yahan aake flat le liya ek aur Akshya Tritya se maine unke paas gaana shuru kiya unke paas gaana shuru jaane ke liye toh us waqt jo gaana shuru karte hai iske paas sikhne ke liye.
( The next day we went to her house, she had called us. So everyone from her family was looking at me at the door wondering who is this girl who sang with her yesterday. So she said okay do this, so first thing we bought a flat here and on Akshaya Trithiya I started going to her to learn.
Toh us waqt jo gaana shuru karte hai hum kiske paas shikne ke liye toh sari, haar, phool sab aur thodi guru dakshina le jaate hai. Toh aise mithai vagere sari, vagere hum le gaye aur thoda sa paakit mein guru dakshina bol ke paisa daala. Toh unhone aisa dekha, kya? Yeh toh sab theek hai magar yeh paakit mein kya hai? Aur hum log aapko kya de sakte hai? Kyun ke woh bahut hi kaafi sab se shreeman gayika thi toh unka Bangla hi tha, gadiyan bhi thi toh hum log aapko kya denge? Nahi kuch bhi ho par tum mujhe paise ki jaroorat nahi hai.
( At that time when you started learning with someone you gave sari, garland, flowers and some guru dakshina. So we took some sweets, sari etc. We took it and a packet, and as guru dakshina we put some money. She saw it and said what? All this is okay but what is this in the packet? What else can we give you? She was a very successful singer, she had a bungalow, cars, what could we give you? Whatever it is I don't need money.
Bhagwan ne mujhe kaafi diya hai magar mera gaana mere peeche rehna chahiye bas yeh meri iccha hai baaki kuch nahi. Toh paakit nikalo aur le jao. Yeh paisa main nahi legi dena hai toh phir darwaza khula hai jaeeye aap. Toh phir humare Pitaji ne paakit le liya aur phir oos din hum jaakar aaye phir gaana shuru ho gaya unke paas
(God has given me enough but my music should live after me that's my only wish so please remove that packet and take it with you. I won't take this money. If you want to give me money, the door is open, you can leave. So my father took away the packet and from that day we went there and I started learning music with her.)
DK: Tar pehle din itni time ke baare mein woh itni pefect thi main paanch baje unke ghar jaati thi na paanch baje maine barabar ghanti bajana chahiye. Ek din 5 baje se 5 minute mujhe der ho gayi unhone mujhe ghadiyal dikhaya dekho time kitne baje 5 hi minute ho gaye jyada nahi, magar jab gaate hai toh sam dete hai toh 5 minute ke baad sam dene ko chalega kya? aise. Oos din se maine dekha ke 5 baje jana chahiye.
( So first day itself, she was so particular about time - I would go to her place at 5. I should ring the door bell at 5 sharp. One day I was late, it was 5:05 and she showed me the clock, asking - see what is the time? I said only 5 minutes late, not more. But when we sing can we start the sam (first beat) after 5 minutes? So from that day I made sure I reach at sharp 5)
Toh Shivaji Park mein unka bangla tha toh hum Shivaji Park mein mere Pitaji aur mainhum dono jaake pehle dus minute woh park main baithte the aur unke ghar jaane ke liye jitna time lagta tha barabar 5 baje mein ghanti bajati thi. Toh phir... discipline woh kehti thi ke jiske gaane mein discipline nahi hai woh gaa nahi sakta. Discipline hona chahiye.
( Her bungalow was at Shivaji Park so we would sit at Shivaji Park for 10 minutes my father and me and I would reach her house and ring the bell at 5 sharp. So... discipline. She would say the one who has no discipline in music cannot sing. Discipline should be there.)
TN: Aur taalim mein farak kya tha? Bhurji Khan Saab se aap seekhthe the? Aur... ( What was the difference in the traning? You had trained with Bhurji Khan Saab
Rutuja: Tyana vicharicha aahe tumhi evdhya lokan kade sikhlat mhanje survatila Bhurji Khan Saheban kade, mag Laxmibain kade and nantar Kesarbain kade tar ya teeghanchya taalimit kai farak hota nemka?
( She wants to ask, you had trained with so many people beginning with Bhurji Khan Saab, then Laxmibai and then Kesarbai what was the difference in the training between the three?)
DK: ha... Ek taalimit farak hota hai aisi hi nahi hai. Kyunki guru sikhata hai magar woh grasping power jitki utni alag-alag aadmi ki alag alag hoti hai. Tar jitni uski grasping power acchi hai aur baad mein Alladiya Khan Saheb ko, Kesarbai sikhi thi kaisi, aise hafte mein ek din, do din aisi nahi sikhi thi.
( Yes... it's not that there was a difference in the training. Because the guru teaches but the grasping power is different for each person. It depends on how good your grasping power is and later Alladiya Khan Saheb, Kesarbai didn't learn once or twice a week.)
Khan Saab ko apne ghar mein hi rakha tha aur 10 saal se woh aise pura din woh gaana sikhate the. Subah ke raaga subah dopahar ke dopahar raat ko raat aise. Aur raat ko 12 baje sone ke liye jao bole toh khush huyi thi jab tak woh gale mein baithta nahi tha tab tak Khan Saheb nahi bolte the ki jao so jao. Tab tak baithna padta tha aur subah 5 baje uthna hi padta tha.
( Khan Saheb stayed at her place and for 10 years, he would teach her all day. The morning raags were taught in the morning, in the afternoon the afternoon raags and night the night raags. And if he said at 12'o clock you can go and sleep now she would be happy because till she perfected a raag Khan Saheb would not say go and sleep. Till then you had to sit and you had to wake up at 5 o'clock in the morning.
DK: Toh Kesarbai ne aise 10 saal unke paas ek minute ka bhi kuch bandh nahi aisa sikha, aise kisi ne sikha hi nahi, kisi ne. Ek toh kya hai ke jab Khan Saab ne kaha ke tumko akeli ko hi sikhana hai toh mujhe jitna meri grahasti chalane ke liye jitna paisa lagta hai utna aapko dena padega, ek hi admi ko main sikha raha hoon nahi toh meri grahasti main kaise chalau toh utna sab kharch karke sab deti thi, woh aaram se sikhte the aur subah paanch baje phir uth ke karte thi.
( For 10 years Kesarbai got non-stop training from him I don't think anyone else has learnt like this. Khan Saab said I have to teach you alone but you have to pay as much you need to take care of my family because I'm just teaching one person, how will I take care of my family, and Kesarbai paid for the expenses, and she learnt with him, and she would wake up again at 5 in the morning and start again.)
Woh mujhe kehti thi ki dophar 12 baje main kaise nah ti thi aur kab khana khaake so na chahiye toh mujhe maloom hi nahi padta tha main aise aankh band karke hi nah ti thi. Waisa hi khana khaake soti thi. Phir 4 baje uthte the Khan Saheb phir taalim dete the 8 baje tak. 8 baje band karte the thoda khana wana hone ke baad raat ko 9-10 baje gaana sikhana shuru karte the.
(She would tell me, that at noon I don't know how I would have bath and when I would eat lunch and fall asleep. I would have a bath half asleep, have my lunch like that and fall asleep after that. Again wake up at 4 o'clock and Khan Saheb would train again till 8 o'clock. At 8 he would stop the training and have dinner etc. and again at night from 9-10 o'clock he would start teaching again.)
Toh jab unke gale mein jo baith na chahte the woh pura nahi hota tab tak Khan Saheb usko sone ke liye nahi chod te the aur woh subah phir 5 baje uthna hi hai toh aise 10 saal sikhne ke baad woh Kesarbai tayyar ho gayi. Aise kisi ne sikha hi nahi aise kisi ko aisi taalim hi nahi mili (not clear). Aur Khan Saheb ne Alladiya Khan Saheb ne awaaz ke upar apna gaana depend nahi hona chahiye isiliye ek tarika ka kuch banaya tha woh sab tarika Kesarbai ko mila tha. Yeh iska gharane ka foundation har ek raaga ke shruti ke sur aur damsaas.
(Until the song 'sat in her throat' Khan Saheb would not let her sleep and the next morning she had to wake up at 5. So it was after 10 years of this kind of training that Kesarbai was ready. No one would have learnt like this or got this kind of training. And Khan Saheb Alladiya Khan Saheb said music should not depend on the voice, so he developed certain techniques, Kesarbai got all those techniques. The foundation of this gharana, for every raag the variations in the notes and damsaas ( singing in a single breath)
Kesarbai ka damsaas itna tha ke sunne wale log ha ha karte the. Kabhi thairgi yeh toh log unko puchte the aapko taklif nahi hoti hai kya? Kesarbai ne kaha main toh aadmi hoon mujhe saas lagta hai magar ek tarika hai gaane ka yeh isiliye aapko lagta hai mera saans itna bada saas kaafi tha
(Kesarbai could hold her breath for really long, the listeners would be stunned. When will she stop? People would ask her, doesn't it bother you? Kesarbai said even I am human, I need to breathe, but there is a technique for singing like this, that's why you think I'm holding my breath for so long.)
TN: I want to know the elements of the taalim. She's talked about the damsaas, maybe like voice culture and other things? If she could speak a little bit about what are the things that Kesarbai taught. The different elements of the taalim
RL: The thing is she already mentioned about damsaas and the shruti che swar
TN: I understood that
RL: Those are the major elements of the gharana
TN: So I'm saying if he's taught her from 4 to 8 in those different times what did he teach?
RL: Raagas of different type
TN: Oh I see... okay
RL: Because there are raagas which belong from different times na so... so would you like to ask
DK: Jab unka saas kam ho gaya thoda sa last programme mein Kesarbai ka thoda sa aisa jyada kuch gadbadi nahi huyi thi main to unke peeche ga rahi thi magar thoda sa saas kam ho gayi toh oos waqt unhone wahan is stage pe kahan aaj se maine gaana chod diya. Jis stage pe maine phool beche hai oos stage pe main kuch jyada doosre kuch bechna, lena nahi chahti hoon. Yeh mera hamesha yahi naam rahega yeh main unko bolti thi ke thairo ekdum mat bolo aise ghar jaake bolenge yeh karenge, unhone nahi bole. Thoda sa saas kam hone baad unhone gaana band kiya
( In Kesarbai's last programme she couldn't hold her breath for a little longer. It wasn't a big mistake. I was singing behind her. At that time from the stage itself she said I have left music from today. The stage where I once presented flowers, I don't want to get anything else from it. My name will remain like this forever. I used tell her, don't announce it at once, we'll go home and announce. She said no. She couldn't hold her breath for a little longer and she stopped singing.)
TN: I want to how she was taught before that, before she came to Kesarbai
RL: Accha aata tumhi Kesarbaincha taalimi baddal sangitla pan tyana tumchya svatacha taalimi baddal janun gheyaycha aahe ki tumhi... tumchi taalim Bhurji Khan Saheban kade jhali, Laxmibain kade jhali aani Kesarbain kade jhali, tar ya teen taalim madhaye nemka farak tumhala kuthla vatla? Tumcha taalimi baddal tynana janun gheyaycha aahe. Ki tumchi taalim kashi jhali. Aata tumhi Kesarbai baddal bolat.
( So you spoke about Kesarbai's training but they want to know about your own training... you training happened with three people - Bhurji Khan Saheb, Laxmibai and Kesarbai what was the difference between the three? They want to know about your training, what was it like)
DK: Ek toh kya main jo Kesarbai ke paas sikhne ke liye aai na toh unko bhi malum tha Kesarbai ko ki inko kuch raaga vaag jyada sikhna nahi hai. Mujhe chaar raage unse jyazda aate the magar inke mere paas aayi kyun? Toh unko pata chala tha ke kis liye aayo hai mere paas toh pehle do saal toh unhone kuch jo mujhe cheez chahiye thi woh sikhaya nahi.
( When I went to learn with Kesarbai she knew that I don't have too many raags. I knew 4 more raags than her but then why did she come to me? She knew why I had come to her. So for the first two years she did not teach me what I wanted to learn.)
Do saal ke baad jab unko laga ki sach maniye mein inko shikna ha toh unhone mujhe Lonavala mein bangla tha unka. Toh wahan jaake hum log rahe ek naukar leke. Toh oos waqt jaise Alladiya Khan Saheb ne unko taalim di thi, waise taalim mujhe de diye. Toh mera uddeshya tha inke paas sikhne ke liye.
(After two years she felt that I really wanted to learn, so she took me to her bungalow in Lonavala. So we went there to stay with one servant. So that time the way Alladiya Khan Saab trained her, she trained me. It was my objective to learn from her. )
Ek raag kaisa present karna chahiye? Ki shadja lagane ke shuru karne se baad se shrota sab apne haat mein aane chahiye ek. Dumsaas kaise badhana chahiye? Yeh dusri baat thi aur yeh dono cheeze mujhe unhone Lonavala jaake wahan sikhayi. Magar do saal pehele kuch nahi sikhaya, do saal. Pariksha
( How should you present a raag? Firstly when you sing the shadja you should be able to captivate the audience. Secondly, how should you increase the dumsaas? Both these things she taught me at Lonavala. But she didn't teach me anything for two years before that. It was a test.)
SS: Aap jab Bambai aaye aap kitne saal ke the tab?
( How old were you when you came to Bombay?)
DK: Bambai mein 10 saal sikhi thi unke paas. ( I trained with her for 10 years)
SS: Nahi aapki umar kya thi. ( No, what was your age?)
S: Tumhi kiti varshanchya hotya tya veli ( How old were you at that time?)
DK: Mi?... Badi ek majje ki baat hai ke jab Kesarbai ne Alladiya Khan Saab ke paas sikhna shuru kiya toh unki 30 saal ki umar thi aur main bhi jab aayi Kesarbai ke paas toh meri bhi 30 saal ki umar thi.
( Me? There's an interesting story Kesarbai started learning from Alladiya Khan Saab when she was 30 and when I came to Kesarbai even I was 30.)
SS: Aur tab se aap Bambai mein hi hai? 30 saal ki umar se aap Bambai mein hai?
Toh Bambai mein aane ke baad kitne saal ke baad show karna, Kesarbai ne aapko kab show karne diye?
( So you have been in Bombay since then? you have been in Bombay from the age of 30?.
Once you came to Bombay after how many years did you start performing? When did Kesarbai let you perform?)
DK: Nahi ha.... unki permission chahiye the toh main mujhe programme aane ke baad main ekdum show kiya mera bhi naam tha kaafi aur main gaati thi aisi toh koi baat nahi thi. toh magar Kesarbai ki permission unhone radio pe toh mera gaana band kiya diya tha ke woh kehti thi ke pure Hindustan mein mere paas tu sikhti hai bolke poore Hindustan mein tumhari recording ho rahi hai waisa gaana mein kisiko dena nahi chahti.
( DK: No yes... I needed her permission, so I got a lot of programmes, I did a few shows. I was well known and I used to sing. But I needed Kesarbai's permission. She had stopped me from singing on the radio. She used to say, you learn with me and the whole of India is recording that music if you sing on the radio, I don't want to give that kind of music to anyone.)
Toh isiliye radio mein unhone bandh kiya tha. Magar private programme deti thi, toh woh oos jamane mein khud 1000 rupaiye leti thi toh unhone kahan ke mere students ko 700 rupaiye de do aur jab woh bolti thi jao gao koi baat nahi
(So that's why she stopped me from singing for radio but she would do private programme and she would charge at that time 1000 rupees so she said my students should get 700 rupees and when she used to say okay go and sing)
TN: App radio mein abhi gaaye hai na? ( You have sung for radio?)
DK: Pehle shuru mein radio mein gaati thi 20 saal ki umar mujhe A class mila tha toh oos waqt se mein gaati thi. ( In the begining I would sing for radio when I was 20, I had received an A class so I used to sing)
TN: Toh woh recording kahan hota tha? Kolhapur mein ya? (So where did the recording happen? In Kolhapur or? )
DK: Nahi pure Hindustan mein log recording kar rahe the jab un sab ko pata chala ki main Kesarbai ke paas sikhti hoon toh mera radio ka gaane ka recording pure Hindustan mein ho raha tha. Toh isiliye unhone band kiya. ( No the recordings were happening across India. When they knew I was learning from Kesarbai, the recordings were happening across India then.)
DK: Ki jaise Satyanarayan ka prasad logon ko dete hai us tarah se mera gana logon ko dena nahi hai. ( Just like they distribute the offerings after a prayer, my music should not be like that.)
SS: Par aap wapas kabhi nahi gayi radio ke paas? Baad mein bhi kabhi nahi gaye? Aur yeh recording companies aap oos din bata rahe the HMV ke saath aapne recording bhi kiya?
( Did you ever go back to radio? You didn't go later also? And what about the recording companies that you spoke about that day, did you record with HMV?)
DK: Recording His Masters... nahi unka aur mera paise ka kuch jama nahi. Woh logon ne bola ke jaise record bech denge toh unka jaise bechne ka paisa milega waise maine bola ki meri umar huyi hai lumsome rakkam aap kiti de... kitne dete woh bolo toh woh log tayyar nahi the. Phir nahi.
( No the money didn't work out. They said they will give a share from the record sales, I said no I'm old now I want to know how much lumpsum amount you can give. But they were not willing to give. So it didn't work out.)
SS: Aapke programme ke recording hoenge kahi? ( There must be recordings of your programme)
DK: Woh toh hai ( That is there)
SS: alag alag logon ke paas. Toh Bambai mein jab aap prograame karte kahan kahan Bambai mein programme kahan kahan ( Different people have it. When you performed in Bombay where did you perform?)
DK: Har ek circle mein programme hota tha ( There used to be a programme in every circle)
SS: Uska thoda mahaul batenge thoda tab kis tarah se sunne wale, kis tarah se sunte the kitne dhyaan se? ( Can you tell us a bit about the ambience, what kind of listeners were there, how they would listen?)
DK: Ek toh pehle le jaamne mein kya tha ke, har ek gharane ke log gaana ke liye aate the. Magar baad mein yeh cheez nahi rahi aur pehle jamane mein apne student ko hum tayyar karti hai toh student ko bhi hum pehle jamane mein sab gharane ke logon ke saamne gaane ke liye unko gaane ke liye kehte the aur sab logon ne bol ke theek hai gaana tab unko bhi hum stage pe gaane ke liye bhejte the. Magar baad mein yeh mahaul nahi raha kisi ka gana sunne ke liye koi bhi jaata nahi koi nahi aaj kal toh bilkul hi band ho gaya.
(In those days, people from the different gharanas came to listen to the music. But then later it didn't continue. Earlier we would train our students and we would ask them to sing in front of people from the other gharanas and only when they approved the singing then we would send them to sing on stage. But later this practice didn't continue. Nobody went to listen to anyone's music and now it has completely stopped.)
SS: Aap jaise Kesarbai se sikhne Bambai aaye usse pehle aap bambai aae the? Kuch aur programme ke liye ( You came to Bombay to learn from Kesarbai did you come to Bombay before that? For any programmes? )
DK: Programme ke liye aati thi usse pehle bhi aati thi. ( I would come for programmes and I had come before that as well)
SS: Woh thoda bataenge kahan kahan circle ke alava kahan kahan programme hote the? ( Can you tell us a little about where did the programmes happen apart from the Circles?)
DK: Yeh jyada taur se circle mein programme hote the ( Most of the programmes happened in the circle)
TN: Vile Parle, Juhu kahan pe hote the? ( where did they happen?)
DK: Nahi sab Dadar-Matunga, Vile Parle, Santacruz aise kaafi circle the yahan Bambai mein. ( No everywhere, Dadar-Matunga, Vile Parle, Santacruz there were many circles in Bombay)
TN: Thane mein bhi the ( Were thery in Thane also?)
DK: Ha, aur dusri baat ek aur bhi thi. Yeh dhanwaan log yeh log the woh private programme bhi karte the apne ghar aise. ( The other thing was the rich people would have private programmes in their homes)
TN: Mahine mein kitni baar programme dete the? ( In a month how many programmes did you have?)
DK: Mahine mein ( In a month?)
TN: ek baar ( Once)
DK: jyada nahi ( Not more )
SS: Toh aap jab abhi aapke students itne saal se aapke student hai, toh yeh sab aapke guru mein se aapne kya kya unke taalim ka hissa liya hai aur aap jab padhate hain toh aap ke taalim ka mishran hoga (not clear)
( You have so many students over the years so from your guru's training and your training would have got mixed)
DK: Ek toh kya hai ki Kesarbai ke sikhne ke baad jab tak Kesarbai zinda thi tar mujhe unke waisa hi gaana padta tha unki style, woh chod ke mein kuch nahi main ga sakti thi magar baad mein mere jo pehle Bhurji Khan, Laxmibai, baba yeh sagle log hote aur Kesarbai sabka sab ek hi gharane ke log the magar sab ne thoda alaga alag tarike se haasil kiya tha toh sabka gaana maine ekattha kiya. Toh mera gaana khaas aise Kesarbai ka hi nahi hai, Bhurji Khan Saheb ki nahi, Laxmibai ka bhi nahi hai. Yeh gharane ka sab jo accha tha woh maine ekattha kiya.
(One thing was when Kesarbai was there I had to sing like her, in her style. I couldn't sing anything else. But later my earlier gurus, Bhurji Khan, Laxmibai, Baba all these people were there and Kesarbai too. Everyone was from the same gharana but everyone had achieved it differently so I brought together everyone's music. So my music wasn't just about Kesarbai or Bhurji Khan Saheb's or Laxmibai's. I collected all the good things about this gharana.)
SS: Baad mein aap pura gharana ko leke aap gaate the ek style mein nahi yeh thoda phir se ek baar jo abhi bola na ( You sang bringing the whole gharana together not just in one style can you please say this again, what you just said?)
RL: Tumhi hyacha agodar je bolat na ke tumhi sgalyancha gaana sgalyanchi padhat tumhi asa ekvatoon tumhi svatachi ek padhat nirman keli tar he tumcha tondon tyana punha aikacha aahe. Mhanje tumhi nemka kai kela tumhi saglyan kadana taalim ghetlya
(What you spoke sometime back that you brought together everyone's style and created your own style they want to hear this again from you. What did you exactly do? You got trained from everyone...)
DK: Ek toh kya hai ke humare Bhurji Khan saheb taal ke badshah the, toh woh unka taal ka maine is mein yeh kiya, Laxmibai bhi bahut sureli aur unka gaane ka tarika kuch alag tha. Uska aalapi gaana Kesarbai se bhi accha tha. Toh woh style unki bhi style aur phir Kesarbai ki style, style toh hai hi magar humari Laxmibai na shaant nadi pravaha suru hai waisa rehta tha. Magar Kesarbai nahi dho dho dho.
(Our Bhurji Khan Saheb was master of taal, so I imbibed that, Laxmibai was very melodious her style was very different. Her alaapi singing was better than Kesarbai's. Her style, then Kesarbai's style, she had her style. Laxmibai was like a peaceful river flowing. But Kesarbai was not like that, she was more loud.)
DK: Dono ka swabahaav bilkul alag tha toh yeh dono yeh dho dho ko kaisa naram karna chahiye aur thodasa naram gaana bhi kaisa thoda jor se gaana chahiye aur taal mein kaisa Bhurji Khan Saheb ka sab aana chahiye. Aisa ekathha karne ke baad woh sab gaana aapke Gujarathi loka toh bahut aise Alladiya Khan Saheb ko bhi suna tha woh logon ne toh jab mera recording thodi meri private nikali thi toh inko bheja tha apne Deepak Raja ne toh unka phone aaya tha, yeh ladki kaun hai? Yeh kareeb kareeb Alladiya Khan saheb ke paas pahuchi hai.
( Both were very different types of people - so how to make this loud type of singing a bit soft and how make the soft singing a bit loud and how to bring it together in Bhurji Khan Saheb's taal. When I brought it all together a lot of the Gujarati people would listen to Alladiya Khan Saheb and when some of my private recordings were released they were sent to Deepak Raja so he had called and asked who is this girl she's almost like Alladiya Khan Saheb.)
DK : Kyunki yeh sab logon ka ek hi tarika tha gaane ka. Magar yeh sab maine ekattha kiya. Isiliye mujhe 2 saal ghar mein baith na pada.
( All these people had one style of singing. I brought all this together. I had to stay at home for 2 years for this.)
SS: Kyun? ( Why?)
DK: Nahi yeh sab ekattha karne ke baad yeh gaane ki style kya karna? Kahan Bhruji Khan Saheb yeh karna hai, kahan Laxmibai, kahan Kesarbai aisa sab karke ekattha aur woh gaana sab Alladiya Khan Saab ka hi tha toh unke paas pahucha.
(After bringing it all together what should one do with this style of singing? Where to bring in Bhurji Khan Saheb, where Laxmibai, where Kesarbai bring it all together and all this music was Alladiya Khan Saab's and it reached him.)
TN: Aur aapka shishya kaun kaun hai? Yeh toh ( not clear) idhar hai (Who are your students? This (not clear) is here )
RL: Tumche shishya kon aahet? Tumchya shisyan baddal janun gheyaycha aahe tyana ( Who are your students? They want to know about your students.)
DK: Majhe shishya, aata changle aahet sagle, ek tyacha naav kai ga? (My students have done well now, what his name that one?)
RL: Aditya
DK: Aditya Khandwe. toh ek tar changlach (not clear) rahila aahe nanatar aata hi mulgi tayyar hote aahe. Aankhi ek mulgi aahe. Ti tayyar hote amhi jasta lokana shikvat nahi, shikau shakat hi nahi karan ek ek ka la don don taas taalim dyaychi aani ekdum chaar paanch lokana aamhi ase shikvat nahi. Individual ek ek
( He has very well, then there's this girl she's getting ready. There's one more girl who's getting trained. I don't teach a lot of people, you can't teach too many people because I train each person for 2 hours and I don't teach 4-5 people together. It is always individual, one-one .)
TN: Aur Namita bhi aapke paas sikhi hai na? ( Namita has learnt from you?)
DK: Namita sikhi khara Namita ke paas... itni acchi ladki hai unke Bhagwaan ki dain bhi kaafi hai magar beech mein 13 saal America jaake rahi toh phir band pada unka. Unke baad shaadi beedi ho gayi, baccha biccha.
( It's true Namita learnt from me.... she is a very nice girl, she's god gifted but for 13 years she had gone to America so she stopped. Then she got married and then kids.)
Aati hai kabhi kabhi, yete pan te tasa tichi he nahi uska awaaz bahut accha hai. Buddhiman hai sab kuch hai unke ghar naukar chakar hai aisa kuch ittar auraton waisa kuch karna padta hai aisi bhi baat nahi hai magar nahi hota jo dedication chahiye gaana kuthli kala karne ke liye, woh dedication unke paas nahi hai. Unke ma ne mujhe kahan tha, baiji aap sikha rahi lekin yeh dedication nahi hai meri ladki ke paas.
( She comes sometimes but not it's not like... her voice is very good. She's very smart, she has everything, their house has servants and all, not like other women who have to do everything. But she doesn't have the dedication for music or for any art form, she doesn't have that dedication. Her mother had told me, baiji you are teaching her but my daughter doesn't have the dedication.)
TN: Aur aapke pita toh aapko bahut support kiya na? ( Your father supported you a lot right? )
SS: Aapke pitaji ne toh aapko bahut ( Your father...)
DK: Support kiya... itna supoort kiya ke main keh nahi sakti hoon. Jab main Bhurji Khan Saheb ke yahan gaana sikhti thi 13-14 saal ki meri umar thi. Aur zamane mein light nahi tha na toh humara ghar bada tha magar light nahi isiliye bindil te sagla. Tar te majhe Pitaji pehle uthte the 4 baje aur sab unka japvap karne ne ke baad mujhe jagate the phir chalo tum gaane ke liye baitho main tumhare saamne baitha hoon, mehnat karo.
( He supported a lot... I can't say how much he supported. When I was learning at Bhurji Khan Saheb's I was 13-14. There was no electricity at that time and our house was huge, so there were lanterns. So my father used to wake up at 4 o'clock and he would do his prayers and then he would wake me up and then he would ask me to sing. I will sit in front of you, do your practice.)
Toh woh zamane mein aisa hi tha ke Kolhapur chota gaon tha isiliye Bhurji Khan Saheb subeh ghoome ke liye bahar jaate the. Toh woh bhi meri mehant sunte the. Toh woh jab sikhane ke liye aate the tab bolte the kya chal raha tha subah kya kar rahi thi? Aisa nahi karna, aisa karna. Aur yeh to hum Bambai mein kar nahi sakte.
( In those days it was like this Kolhapur was a small village, so Bhurji Khan Saheb would go in the morning for walks. So he would hear my practice as he was walking. So when he came to teach he would say what were you doing in the morning? Don't do this, do it like this. We cannot do this in Bombay.)
SS: Sangeet ko leke Bambai ka mahaul aur Kolhapur ka mahaul mein kya antar hai aapke zamane mein? ( With respect to music what was the difference in the music scene in Bombay and Kolhapur in those days?)
DK: Ek toh Kolhapur ke Shahu Maharaj se woh bahut rasile aur gunagrhakta unke paas bahut thi. Toh unhone darbar gayak bol ke Alladiya Khan Saheb ko rakha tha toh ek woh bahut prestige ki baat thi. Aur phir Kolhapur mein yeh gaana aisa mhanje Kolhapur ke waisa gaana ka mahaul kahan hi nahi tha, wahan Deval Club (check) bol ke ek sanstha hai har ek gayak wahan aane ke baad Deval club ke logon ne unko accha bola toh woh duniya mein ga sakta tha. Itna Kolhapur ka mahual tha.
( Shahu Maharaj of Kolhapur was very melodious and he was a connoisseur. He had Alladiya Khan Saheb as a darbar singer which was a matter of prestige. No other place had the ambience that Kolhapur had. There was a organisation called Deval Club. Whoever sang at Deval Club and got appreciation, he could sing anywhere in the world. That was the ambience in Kolhapur.)
TN: Aur Bambai accha nahi laga aapko? ( You did not like Bombay?)
DK: Nahi aise nahi, baad mein toh Bambai mein toh mahaul hai hi. Bambai mein paise waale log hai na itne toh Kolhapur mein nahi tha jitna Raja karta tha utna hota tha (No, not like that, later in Bombay had the ambience. Bombay has a lot of rich people. Kolhapur didn't have so many, only as much as the king could do.)
SS: Toh Bambai programmes jyada milte the ( You would get more programmes in Bombay?)
DK: Jyada ( More)
SS: Paise jayda milte the ( You would get more money)
DK: Bahut hi Bambai mein programme aur abhi bhi Calcutta, Bambai aur Delhi yeh teen gaon mein bhi Bambai ka jitna sangeet tha utna Sangeet kahan bhi nahi
(Bombay had a lot of programmes and even now Calcutta, Bombay and Delhi between these 3 places no place has as much music as Bombay.)
SS: Matlab sunne wale jyada hai? (Means there are more listeners in Bombay?)
DK: Sunne wale jyada, hai gyaani bhi hai woh log abhi mujhe puchte hai ke pehle shrote itne acche the kya? Ki Samajdar the kya? Magar woh pehle shrote kaise hote the jab kiska gaana hota tha toh sab gharane ke log aate the aur baithe the. Woh jo kehte the unko yeh gaane yeh gayak kaisa hai, inka gaane ka darja kya hai tar uske upar woh shrote depend karte the. Ki aisa karke thoda thoda gaana un logon ke bhi samaj mein aata tha. Woh mahaul aaj... nahi
(There are more listeners, and people who know they ask me now were the listeners that good earlier? Were they smart? Earlier the listeners... when anyone sang, everyone from all the gharanas would come and sit. Whatever they said about a singer, what is the level of a singer the listeners depended on that, and by doing this they also understood a little bit about music. That doesn't exist... today.)
TN: Abhi bhi log aate hai na sunne ke liye? ( Even today people come to listen?)
DK: Nahi sunne ke liye kaafi log aate hai. 10-10,000 lok aate hai magar jo shrotaon ka aur Kalakaron ka jo contact hone chahiye woh nahi hota. 10-10,000 log na kalakar hai woh aisa doll ke jaisa dikhta hai.
( A lot of people come to listen. 10-10,000 people come but the contact between the artist and the audience that doesn't happen. 10-10,000 people the artist looks like a little doll.)
DK: Magar abhi jo thoda younger generation jo hai woh kaafi dhyaan de rahi hai shastriya sangeet, gharana sangeet magar aaj tak toh kaafi gharane khatam huye
( But now the younger generation pays a lot of attention to classic music, gharana music but a lot of gharanas don't exist anymore.)
SS: Deepak Rajaji bol rahe the peechle 20-30 saal ki jo peedhi hai kyunke radio ka band shashtriya sangeet radio pe bandh ho gaya is liye jo abhi ki peedhi hai unko woh samaj nahi hai. Jaise woh bol rahe the humari peedhi ko inke peedhi ko All India Radio ke wajah se ek tarah se sunne ka ek taalim mila. Aapko lagta hai ke
( Deepak Raja said that the generation of the last 20-30 years after radio stopped playing classical music, the present generation has no knowledge about music. Like he was saying our generation got this training from listening to All India Radio. Do you think...)
DK: Sahi hai yeh baat ke woh radio mein jab bade bade gayak gaate the toh woh jabhi yeh zinde nahi the magar nahi toh bhi unka gaana sunne ke liye milta hai
(He's right. You could listen to some really great singers, and when they passed away you could still listen to their music on radio.)
SS: Aapne oos din bataya tha ke Kesarbai ne aapko radio pe jaane se mana kiya tha. Woh phir se batenge woh pura kissa?
( You told us that day that Kesarbai didn't let you sing on radio. Can you tell us that incident again?)
RL: Tumhi.. Kesarbaine tumhala radiot gaichi parvangi nahi dili tya velala tar tyacha karna tumhi hyacha agodar sangitla aahe tar punha te aikacha aahe ki nemka radio varti tumhala gaila ka nahi dila? Kesarbain ni?
(You.. Kesarbai did not allow to sing on radio... you spoke about the reason earlier they want to hear about it again. Why didn't she let you sing on radio?)
DK: Radio mein jab gaana hota tha na, toh jab logon ko pata chala ke Kesarbai ke paas main gaana sikhti hoon toh woh Kesarbai ka gaana yeh karne ke liye haasil karne ke liye main radio mein gaati thi toh uska recording pure Hindustan mein hota tha. Isliye unhone band kiya.
( When I sang on the radio people found out that I was learning from Kesarbai, so in order to get Kesarbai's music when I would sing on radio they would record it in India that's why she stopped me from singing.)
SS: Par aapne oos din yeh bola th na ke 15-15 minute ka sirf slot mein ( But that day you told us that there would be 15 minute slots)
DK: Ha yeh bhi ek baat huyi thi jab pehle baar main unke paas sikhne ke liye aati thi na, toh pehli baar jo mujhe form aaya radio ka toh subah 15 minute, shaam ko 15 minut raat ko adha ghanta aise.
( Yes, this was another thing that, when I went to study with her I had received that form from the radio, morning 15 minutes, evening 15 minutes and half an hour at night.)
Toh Kesarbai ne dikhao mujhe form toh unhone direct station director ko phone kiya, ki yeh kya chal raha yeh kaisa programme rakhte hai aaplog? Toh unhone bola kya? Kesarbaiji aap aanewale hai? Main nahi meri ladki aa rahe hai wahan. Toh unse na jitna gaana chahiye na ek dafa gaana le lo, ek ghanta ekdum le lo aise 15-15 minute yeh kya gaaenge. Ek ghanta kam se kam ekdum le lo.
( So Kesarbai said, show me what form that is and she directly called the station manager and said what's going on and what kind of prograame is this? So they asked Kesarbai will you be coming to sing? She said not me, one of my girls is coming there. You record as much as you want from in her in one go, record for one hour straight, not like this for 15-15 minutes. Record for one hour at once.)
Toh phir woh station director woh toh Kesarbai ka itna dabaav tha. Station director bhi darr gaya. Ek ghante ka programme inko kaisa karu? Toh unhone kya kiya oos din Mangalwar tha, toh unhone raat ko 10-11 baje tak ek ghanta mera pura programme rakha aur usko sangeet mahotsav bol ke aisa kiya.
( So the station director, there was a lot of pressure on him because of Kesarbai. He was really scared. How would he have a one-hour programme. So what he did, it was a Tuesday, so he organised a night show from 10 to 11 for one hour and he called it Sangeet Mahotsav.)
TN: Yeh live programme rehta tha na? Aap gaane ke waqt woh broadcast karte the? ( This used to be live programme right? They would broadcast it when you sang?)
DK: Huh?
RL: Hey sagle mhanje live asaicha na? Ki tumhi jenva gaana gatai aahet tumcha jenva recording hoicha tyach velela te broadcast vhaicha ka? Te tyana vicharaicha aahe
(This would all be live right? Like when you were singing or when it was being recorded it used to be broadcast at the same time? That's what she wants to ask.)
DK: mhanje majhya lakshat nahi aala. ( Meaning? I didn't get you?)
RL: Aata kai ki, Aata hya divsat recording kasa hota ki recording aadhi hota aani tyacha nantar kahi diwasni radiot te broadcast hota
( So these days the recording happens first and then it is broadcast some days later)
DK: Nahi nahi live gaat hot hoto ( No, no we sang live)
RL: Te live asaicha ( That used to be live)
DK: Radio var amhi live gaat hoto ( We would sing live on radio)
TN: Aur pehle aap gaate the na woh mic use karte the aap?
( And did you use mic when you sang?)
DK: Shuru mein mic nahi tha. Kesarbai toh mic nahi leti thi 1000 aadmi ka hall hai toh woh mic nahi leti thi. Kesarbai ne kabhi mic liya nahi. Last last akher ek don chaar programme ke liye liya hoga. Tab tak mic liya nahi tha
( In the begining there was no mic. Kesarbai didn't use a mic, in a hall for 1000 people she would not use a mic. Kesarbai never used a mic. I think only towards the end for a couple of programmes she would have used a mic. Before that she didn't use a mic.)
TN: Aur aap hamesha mic ke saath ( And you have always used a mic?) [DK nods]
SS: Aap, apne Laxmibaug mein programme kiya hua hai? Aur Trinity Circle mein bhi? ( Have you performed at Laxmibaug? And in Trinity Circle?)
RL: Trinity Circle, Trinity Club madhye Girgaum. ( In Trinity Club?)
DK: Ho, Ho, Trinity Club sagli kade programme jhale aahet.
( Yes, yes in Trinity Club. I have had programmes everywhere)
SS: Thoda kyun ke hum Trinity Club aur Laxmibaug mein shooting kar chooke hain thoda sa koi programme ka varnan karenge jo Trinity Club mein kiya ya Laxmibaug mein kiya? Koi programme ka koi yaad hai?
( We have shot in Trinity Club and Laxmibaug so can you tell us a little bit about a programme at these places? Any programme that you remember?)
RL: Tumchi ekhadi mehfil ji Trinity Club kinva Laxmibaget jhaleli aahi hyachi aathvan tumhi saangu shakal?
( Can you talk about any one of your mehfils that has happened at Trinity Club or Laxmibaug?)
DK: Ata kasa sangaar amhi? Aata kiti varsha jhali tyala ( How do I tell you now? It's been so many years)
RL: Laxmibaget tumhi nemka kai gailelat? ( What did you sing at Laxmibaug?)
DK: Ata kai lakshat kiti varsha jhale ( I don't remember now it's been so many years)
RL: Pan Laxmibaget khoop changle shrote yayache asa mhanje toh ek Mumbaicha khoop motha ( But Laxmibaug had very good audience, I mean it was one of Mumbai's)
DK: Mumbaitla te ek.. ( In Mumbai it was one ...)
RL: Prestige cha ( Prestigious)
DK: Prestige cha thikaan samajla jaicha ( considered as a prestigious place)
SS: Aur maine suna hai ke pehle jab log mic ke bina gaate the toh Laxmibaug bahut accha jagah tha aur ek baar mic aaya Laxmibaug ka sound ka bahut gadbad rehta tha.
( I have also heard that first when people sang without the mic Laxmibaug was a good place but when the mic came Laxmibaug's sound had a lot of problems)
DK: barabar... aapki baat barabar hai ( Correct, what you are saying is correct)
SS: Iss ke wajah se wahan band ho gaya programme ( Because of this the programmes stopped there)
TN: Any memorable performance that she has heard?
RL: Tumhala ek avismarniya mehfil konachi aathave te ka Mumbait jhaleli? Ji khoop mhanje tumhi visruch shaknaar nahi. Evdhi changli mehfil. Tumcha aayushatli tumhi konachi aikleli. Tar te tumhi saanga
( Do you have a memorable performance you remember, that happened in Mumbai? Something which you can never forget, such a nice performance. A performance that you have heard in your lifetime, can you talk about that?)
DK: 1944 saali Vikramaditya Conference jhali tyacha madhye javal javal sagle Hindustan che gayak vaadak alele hote tar tya velela shevti saglyaat Alladiya Khan Sahebanchi... Alladiya Khan Saheb gaile aani ti mehfil amhi kadhi hi visru shakat nahi.
( 1944 there was a Vikramaditya Conference and all the Hindustani singers and musicians had come and at the end Alladiya Khan Saheb performed and I can't ever forget that performance.)
Karan Alladiya Khan Saab ke peeche ek baaju Kesarbai, ek baaju Bhurji Khan Saheb aise baithe the aur us waqt Alladiya Khan Saheb ki umar 90 ki thi toh sabko kutoohal tha ki sab log bolte the ki baher lawn pe baithne ke liye bhi ticket le lo hum se magar mic leke humko gaana sunne ke liye kuch vyavastha karo magar karyakari mandal woh logon ne bola ki nahi, aise hum nahi karenge. Fakt ek din woh convocation hall madhye ek ek khurchi jyada daali thi, itna kiya tha. Toh woh mehfil hum kaise hum zindagi mein nahi bhool sakte.
( Because behind Alladiya Khan Saab on the one side was Kesarbai and the other side was Bhurji Khan Saheb sitting and that time Alladiya Khan Saheb must have been 90 so everyone was curious, everyone said please give tickets to sit on the lawn but use a mic make some arrangements so that we can listen to his music but the organisers said we won't do it. Just for one day in the convocation hall they put extra chairs, that's all they did. So I can never forget that performance in my life.)
TN:Aur kaunsa raaga sune hai? (What raaga did you listen to?)
DK: Woh... unhone Alladiya Khan Saheb ne jo raaga gaya tha toh oos waqt sarod bajane waale Hafiz Ali Khan the toh unhone uth ke unko poocha ki Khan Saheb yeh raaga ka naam kya hai? Toh Khan Saheb ne bole arrey Hafiz yeh toh Ramkari hai. Toh Hafiz Khan bole ki, aapke Ramkari ki shobha kuch aur hai.
( He... the raag Alladiya Khan Saheb sang at that time the sarod player Hafiz Ali Khan so got up and asked, Khan Saheb which raag is this? So Khan Saheb said, arrey Hafiz this is Ramkari so Hafiz Khan said, your Ramkari has a different beauty to it.)
SS: Woh sawaal sab bhool gaye ( We have forgotten the questions)
TN: Yeh photo hai na yeh sabka yeh... Yeh toh Alladiya Khan Saab hai (These photographs of everyone... This is Alladiya Khan Saab's)
DK: Unke neeche unke bhai Haider Khan Saheb, unke right side ( Below that is his brother Haider Khan Saheb, on his right side...)
TN: Manji Khan Saheb
DK: Ikade, nahi, Manji Khan Saheb idhar (No here, Manji Khan Saheb is here)
TN: Yeh (This is ) Bhurji Khan Saheb
RL: Upar right mein. Aur left hand side mein kon aahe? Left hand side madhye pagdi ghalun aahet te tyanche mothe... tyanche dhakte bhau na? ( Top right and who is on the left? On the left hand side with the turban is this elder brother... younger brother)
DK: Mothe bhau nahi motha mulga ( Not his elder brother, his elder son)
RL: Motha mulga Nasiruddin Khan Saheb ( Elder son, Nasiruddin Khan Saheb)
DK: Nasirduddin Khan Saheb, aani khali aslele ( and below that is) Bhurji Khan Saheb
S: Left hand side mein, beech mein Haider Khan Saheb aur extreme right mein (not clear)
SS: Jab aap aaye Bambai mein jab aap Kesarbai se sikhte the toh aap Kesarbai ke ghar pe reh rahe the ki toh kahan? ( When you came to Bombay you were learning from Kesarbai, were you staying with Kesarbai?)
DK: Hafte mein do din main jaati thi magar do din... ek toh waise main tayyar thi aise koi shuru se kuch sikhana nahi tha toh do din itna sikhati thi ke mehnat karke jaana mushkil padta tha mujhe.
( I would go twice a week, but two days.. I was quite prepared by then, I didn't have to learn from scratch. So for two days she would teach me so much, it would be difficult for me to practice so much and go.)
Aur kabhi ek khaad din maine mehnat nahi ki toh unko barabar pata chalta tha. Toh kya? Ha... aur mujhe kuch nahi bolti thi mere saath mere Pitaji aate the na toh unko bolti thi, ho laadki lek aaj mehnati la uthavla nasel. Asa tyana bolaichya becharyana.
( And if on someday I didn't practise enough she would find out and she would not say anything to me, my father would come along with me to play tabla, so she would tell him, yes she's the darling daughter you must have not woken her up today for practice. So she would say things to him, poor thing.)
SS: Toh sab se jyada kis baat ko leke woh aapko tokte the? Padhate waqt
( What was the thing that she would correct you for the most while teaching?)
RL: Tumhala saglyat jasta mhanje jenva tya kahi tumhala he chookicha aahe.
(What did she correct you for the most?)
DK: Eh?
RL: Jenva Kesarbai tumhala shikvaichya tar kuthla jasta tyana vaataicha ki ikade tumchi chook hotay he ashi kuthli goshta hoti. Jasta tumhala raag kashya varti kela aahe? Raagavlya astil kadhi tar Kesarbai tar kuthlya goshti var?
( When Kesarbai would teach you, so what was the one thing she felt that you are making a lot of mistakes on? What did she get angry about the most? If she, Kesarbai every got angr,y so what would it be about?)
DK: Nai kadhich nahi... mhanje khara sangaicha mhanje Kesarbaincha baddal lokanchya samjuti faar he hotya ke Bhayankar strict bai aani vaatel tasa boltat vagere asa asa kahi navta khoop prem kele majhya var.
( No never... I mean there was a lot of misunderstanding about Kesarbai that she's very strict and says whatever comes to her mind etc. there was nothing like that, she loved me a lot.)
SS: Toh aapne ne kab se aapke khudke students kab se shuru kiya aapne? Jab Bambai mein kis time pe aapne sikhana shuru kiya
(When did you start training your own students? When did you start teaching in Bombay?)
DK: Sadharan maine 60 saal ke umar se sikhana shuru kiya. Usse pehle khud mujhe practice karna tha mujhe sikhna tha usse pehle maine jyada tution nahi kele magar ek don log sikhat hote majhya kade asa kahi.
( I think roughly when I was about 60 years of age I started teaching. Before that I had to practise myself, I wanted to learn, I didn't teach too many people. But one or two people were learning from me)
SS: Toh aap tab rahte woh Girgaum ke paas rehte the na ek jamane mein?
( You were staying close to Girgaum at one point?)
RL: Tumhi eke kaali Girgaumchya jawal rahaicha ka? Mhanje ( Did you at some point stay close to Girgaum?)
DK: Ho (Yes)
SS: Toh oos time pe jo humne jo sansodhan kiya hai ke oos time pe sab mahan Kalakar wahi the sab bade programme wahi pe hote the. Sab alag tarah ke jaise Deodhar school tha sab alag tarah ki taalim ho rahi thi. Toh woh thoda Girgaum ka thoda bataye varnan karengi oos time sara jaise Shastriya Sangeet pura wahan pe basa hua
( So the research that we have done is, that time all the great artists were there and all the big programmes happened there. All the different schools like Deodhar School, different kind of training. So can you describe a little bit - like all the classical music is based there.)
RL: Tyana mhanaicha aahe ki tumhi jenva Girgaumwat hota mhanje Girgaum he Shastriya Sangeetacha kendra sthan manla jaicha Mumbaiit tar tya velela tumhi jya kaali Girgaumwat rahila tar tya velacha tumhi vatarancha varnan karu shakal ka? Mhanje kiti tari Deodhar school kinva asa kahi tari
( What she means to say, is when you were in Girgaum, Girgaum was considered the centre for classical music in Mumbai so can you describe the atmosphere of that time when you stayed in Girgaum? Means there were a lot of places like Deodhar School or something like that...)
DK: Waise aamhi late hi aaye the. Usse pahile jo itna accha mahaul tha oos jamane mein hum log nahi aaye. Main 1962 main aayi usse pahile wahan kya kya hota tha waise programme ke liye hum log aaya karte the Ganpati Utsav he te sagle. Pahile Ganapti Utsav madhye... aapla ha rasta asto na tikade pandal takoon moth mothya gaikanchi gaani hoichi toh nantar mahaul rahila nahi.
( We had come here late. Before that when the scene was was very good we didn't come in that era. I came here in 1962. Before that what happened there... we would come for programmes for Ganpati festival etc. Back then during Ganpati Festival on the road they would make pandals and many great singers would perform, later that didn't continue.)
TN: Aur aap bhi gaaye hai? Lamington road ya oos taraf? ( Have you sung at Lamington road or that side?)
DK: Huh?
TN: Ha aap bhi Ganesh Utsav mein performance kiya hai? (Have you performed for Ganesh festival?)
RL: Tumchi Ganestosavat gaani jhali aahet ka? Lamington road kinva ( Have you performed during Ganesh festival? At Lamington road or...)
DK: Ho, har saal main aati thi Ganeshotsav madhye gaila vagere ashi barech programme hote te. Mothya mothya gayanche Hirabai Barodekar, Malikarjun Mansur vagere hya lokanchi hi gaani hoichi tyachat me pan gaichi.
( Yes, I would come every year for Ganesh festival to sing etc. A lot of programmes happened. All big big singers Hirabai Barodekar, Mallikarjun Mansur etc. they would sing and even I would sing.)
SS: Kai logon ne hume bataya hai ki jaise Laxmibaug mein koi gaa raha hai Brahmin Sabha mein bhi koi gaa raha hai toh beech mein log bhaag bhaag ke batate the abhi Brahmin Sabha mein yeh ho raha hai abhi wahan toh saari saari raat log upar neeche
( A lot pf people have told us that when someone was singing at Laxmibaug and someone else at Brahmin Sabha so people would run out in the middle of it and tell what song is being performed there so all night they would be running up and down.)
DK: Hota tha... Krishna Master ka Brahmin Sabhe madhye bahut programme hote the khaas taur se Ganpati Utsav unke wahan hote the. Toh log aise yahan jaake wahan jaake aur yeh gayak ko sunna hai, kal yeh gayak ko sunna hai kyun sab acche tayyar sab the har ek gharane ke baad mein gharane sab yeh ho gaye mahaul hi chala gaya sab.
( Yes it happened, Krishna Master had a lot of programmes at Brahmin Sabha specially during Ganpati Utsav. So people would go here and there and they would want to listen to this singer and the next day some other singer because they were all good singers of every gharana but later the gharanas were no more and the mood was never the same.)
SS: Phir aapko lagta hai ke mujhe pata nahi yeh sahi ya nahi Bambai mein aake jyada mahilyan programme kar rahi thi aisa tha kabhi ke Bambai ka koi hissa tha ke jyada mahilyaen
( I don't if I'm right, but do you feel that a lot of women were performing in Bombay, was there any part in Bombay where more women...)
DK: Ek baat kya hai... ek yeh sab Goankar auratein thi woh sab logon ka gaana naachna sikhna hi chahiye tha...
( One thing is that... all the Goan women, these women would have to learn to sing and dance...)
Aur yeh loko ke wajah se toh har ek gharane ka gaana raha toh yeh logon ke liye sach maniye mein inka aabhar maan na chahiye kyun ke woh grahasti log oos time mein koi nahi sikhta tha. Striyan kahan yeh purush aadmi log nahi sikhte the toh striya kuthun gaana shiknar? Shala nahi the striyanna toh gaana sikhna toh aur door.
( and because of these people every gharana was alive so really these people should be thanked, because at that time people did not learn. Women learning music was out of the question. When men did not learn so how will the women learn? There was no music school so for women to be learning music was too far fetched.)
SS: Toh aapke parivar mein aapke Pitaji ke wajah se aap sikhe phir aur logon ne Pitaji ko kuch bola ke kyun?
( So in your family because of your father you learned music. Did people say anything to him?)
DK: Thoda sa, rishtedar ne kahan yeh aap log kar rahe woh theek nahi baat, ladkiyon kyun gaana sikha rahe hai? Magar humare Pitaji, theek hai koi baat nahi.
( A little, relatives said what you are doing is not right. Why are you teaching music to the girls? But our father, it's okay, doesn't matter)
SS: Aapki beheno ne bhi sikha? (Did your sisters also learn?)
DK: Meri behen bhi gaati thi mere saath woh abhi gujar gayi, woh nahi hai. Hum dono mil ke gaate the toh humara Kulkarni sisters ke naam se hum prasiddha the. Aur mera bhai Delhi main hai owh bhi tabla acch bajata hai.
( My sister used to sing with me, she's no more. We would sing together. We were famous as the Kulkarni sisters. My brother who is in Delhi he plays the tabla well.)
SS: woh bhi programme karte hai? ( Does he have programmes as well?)
TN: Aur Malikarjun Mansur aapke guru bandhu hota hai na? ( And Malikarjun was your fellow student right?)
DK: Ji ( Yes)
TN: Toh aap milte the unko aur... ( So did you meet him...)
RL: Tumhi Mallikarjun tumche guru bandhu hote (Malikarjun was your fellow student)
DK: Ho ( Yes)
RL: Tar tya velela tumchi bhet kashya prakare jhaleli? ( So how did you meet him?)
DK: Woh toh Kolhapur mein aate the sikhne ke liye Bhurji Khan Saheb ke paas woh toh sab khana waana sab humare ghar hi khaate the, sab. Aur Mallikarjun Mansur itne yeh toh ke... unka dhyaan bhi nahi rehta tha khaana waane pe toh meri ma ko bolta tha ke maine roti kitni khayi? Toh meri ma ne bola ki, maine gin ke toh nahi daali hai. Nahi kal se aap muje taat yeh karke hi mujhe de. Toh Mallikarjun toh humare ghar khana khaate the, yeh karte the koi aisi
( He would come to learn from Bhurji Khan Saheb so he would eat with us and all. Mallikarjun was so... he would never pay attention to what he is eating and he would tell my mother, how many rotis have I eaten? So my mother said I didn't count while serving. No from tomorrow you serve the plate like that. So Mallikarjun would come home often and eat.)
TN: Aur aap bhi Dharwad ko gaye hai ( Have you been to Dharwad?)
DK: Dharwad gayi thi. ( I have been to Dharwad)
TN: Udhar programme diye hai. ( You have performed there)
DK: Programme. Yeh Girish Karnad ke bhai mere paas sikhte the gaana, toh Dharwad mein hum log gaye the. Ek mahina wahan University mein sikhane ke liye bhi main gayi thi.
( Girsh Karnad's brother used to learn from me so I had gone to Dharwad. I was there for one month to teach at the University)
TN: Accha laga udhar? ( Did you like it there?)
DK: Ha, Dharwad accha hai. ( Yes, Dharwad is nice)
TN: Kolhapur jaise hi hai? ( Is it like Kolhapur?)
DK: Huh?
TN: Kolhapur jaise hi hai? ( Is it like Kolhapur?)
DK: Nahi ( No)
SS: Kya farak hai? Dharwad aur Kolhapur mein kya ( What is difference betwen Dharwad and Kolhapur?)
DK: Aisa bilkul najdeek hi hai. Dharwad mein hawa paani bahut acchi hai itni Kolhapur mein nahi acchi. ( They are pretty close by. Dharwad has good weather. Kolhapur is not so nice)
SS: Sangeet ko leke? Shastriya Sangeet ko leke kya farak tha? Kyun ke dono humesha naam Kolhapur Dharwaad ka aata reha hai. ( In relation to music? What is the difference between them in relation to classical music? Because both the names keep coming up, Kolhapur and Dharwad?)
DK: Yeh ek Kannadi lok na bahut gaane ke liye mahaul hote hai har ek gharane mein lok gaana sikhte hai jaise Madras mein har ek aurat veena toh bajati hai. Waise Maharashta mein itna nahi tha. Baad mein shuru hua. Magar itna nahi. Dharwad ke bahut kaafi log the wahan bhi acche alag alag gharane ke gaane waale, bahut log the. Kirana gharana yeh sab. Agra sab Aur abhi bhi yeh Karnataka government jitna Sangeet ke liye kar raha hai utna Maharashtra governmant nahi raha hai. Sangeet ke liye kuch karna chahiye gurukul nikal na chahiye abhi wahan Gangubai ke naame se gurukul nikala hai, toh wahan mujhe bhi bulaya tha sikhane ke liye magar mein gayi nahi.
( These Kannadi people they are connosieurs of music and in each home people learn music like in Madras every woman plays the veena. It's not like that in Maharashtra. It started much later but not so much. A lot of people from Dharwad were there, a lot of good singers from different gharanas, a lot of them. Kirana gharana all this. Agra and all. Even now the Karnataka government does a lot more for music than the Maharshtra government. They should do something for music, there should be more music schools. There is a music school there in the name of Gangubai, they had invited me there to teach but I did not go.)
SS: Kyun? Bambai nahi chodna accha lagta? ( Why? You don't like to leave Bombay?)
DK: Nahi aisi baat nahi hai yeh ek Kannad lok wahan jaake baithna yeh karna woh karna. Maharashtra mein rehne ki adat ho gayi na. ( No it's not like that but to go and stay with Kannada people. I am now used to living in Maharashtra.)
DK: Thank you.
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