Mumbai Music: Shrikant and Shubhada Dadarkar
Director: Surabhi Sharma; Cinematographer: Ajay Noronha
Duration: 01:06:34; Aspect Ratio: 1.778:1; Hue: 32.183; Saturation: 0.153; Lightness: 0.417; Volume: 0.218; Cuts per Minute: 0.105; Words per Minute: 173.083
Summary: The Dadarkars discuss their family involvement in Marathi sangeet natak which continues to this day. They talk about the history of natya sangeet, its strong foundation in Hindustani classical sangeet, and its immense popularity in areas like Dadar and Girgaum.
Making Music
TN: Shubhadaji, Shrikant Dadarkarji aap kaafi time se Sangeet Natak mein kaam kar rahe hai ( Shubhadaji, Shrikant Dadarkarji you have been working on Sangeet Natak for a long time now.)
SD: Bikul ( Absolutely)
TN: Aur aapke ghar mein Sahitya, Hindustani Sangeet, Sangeet Natak sab (not clear) hai na toh Dadar ke baare mein kuch aap baat karn humare saath, aur Sangeet natak ke baare mein aur aapka khudka personal experience ke baare mein. ( And your family has been steeped in Literature, Hindustani Music, Sangeet Natak can you talk to us about Dadar to us and about Sangeet Natak ( Musical Drama) and about your personal experienc)
SD: Jaroor ( Sure)
TN: Aap pehle baat karte hai? Shubdhaji ( Would you like to speak first? Shubhadaji?)
S: Accha, Dadar area mein toh Sangeet Natak bahut saal se pehle mere Pitaji kar rahe the tab matlab 25 years to 30 years Rangsharda Pratisthan karke jo sanstha hai uske matlab Rangsharda Pratisthan ke aur se bahut saare Sangeet natak kiye mere Pitaji Vidyadhar Gokhale, unhone khud 14 natak likhe hai play writer hai woh aur sabhi ke sabhi natak unke lok priya ho gaye aur usmein se bahut saari shows Dadar area mein the.
( Okay, In Dadar area my father worked on Sangeet Natak for about 25-30 years for the company Rangsharda Pratisthan he did a lot of plays on behalf of Rangsharda Pratisthan my father Vidyadhar Gokhale, he wrote 14 plays and all his plays were popular and a lot of the shows happened in the Dadar area.)
S: Lekin Dadar area ka bahut purana kehne ka matlab hai Shivaji Mandir theatre hai woh pehle open air theatre tha, wahan par kuch Sangeet Natak ke kuch bahut saare mahotsav hote the
( But in Dadar one of the older places what I mean to say is Shivaji Mandir theatre that use to be open air earlier so a lot Sangeet Natak festivals happened there.)
TN: Yeh Shivaji Park mein ( This is at Shivaji Park?)
S: Shivaji Mandir
TN: Kahan hai woh? Shivaji Mandir ( Where is that Shivaji Mandir?)
S: Plaza ke opposite, opposite plaza
SS: Aap Marathi mein boliye hum Hindi mein puchenge aap Marathi mein. ha ekdum flavour aayega ( You speak in Marathi we will ask in Hindi you speak in Marathi, it will bring out the real flavour)
S: Hey kai mhanje tumhala junya pasane pahije ka kasa pahije? ( So, you want it from the old days or how do you want it to be?)
SS: Aapke jaise... jaise aap bade ho rahe hai aapka kahan kahan ja rahe kya natak dekh rahe ho kaun, oos tarah se. Aatmakatha ke tarah ( Like you... from the time you were growing up where did you go what plays did you watch, like that. Like an autobiography.)
S: Okay
S: Bolu? (Should I speak)
SS: Ha (Yes)
S: Majhya agadi lahan pana pasana Sangeet Natak hey gharatach aslya mule khoop kahi kalakar aani khoop kahi Sangeet Nataka mala anubhavta aali tyacha madhye don mahotsav faar mothya pramanat Dadar areayat hoiche te ek mhanje D'silva High School cha pataangan jithe 6-6-7 diwas mahotsav chalaicha aani Sangeet Natakache paryog hoiche
( Since my childhood because Sangeet Natak was a part of the family I met a lot of artists and I watched a lot of Sangeet Natak's and among them the two big festivals that happened in Dadar one was in D'silva High School playground here the festival went on for 6-7 days and a lot of Sangeet Natak performances happened there)
SD: Agadi Dadar station chya jawal aahe. D'silva High School ( It's very close to Dadar station. D'silva High School.)
TN: Kab hota tha yeh? ( When did this happen?)
S: Ratrichya velela prayog asaichaiche. Saadharan 40 varshachya purvi cha kaal sangtay me tar tenva pasana te mahotsav hot asat. Majhya vaiyacha mhatla tari me shaalet asatana pasana aathvi- naavi mahtla tari hi goshta mi 35-40 varsha purvi chi mi sangte aahe tumhala. Tar tenva pasana hey mahotsav hoiche tar hya tikhani khoop kalakar anubhavlya milale. Sangeet natakatle jawal jawal sagle chya sagle mothe Kalakar ithe sahabhagi jhale astil.
( The performances happened at night. I'm talking about 40 years back the festivals happened since then. My age at the time I was in school aybe in the 8th or 9th grade I'm telling you something about 35-40 years back. So since then these festivals happened and I have experience a lot of artists here. Almost all the big artists from Sangeet Natak would participate in this.)
S: Tyach pramane Shivaji Mandir pan open air theatre hote suruvatila tithe hi kahi prayog hoiche pan D'silva High School aani King George shaalecha pataangan, Dadar East la tithe Sangeet Natakche Mahotsav hot asat aani te pahaila anubhavaila tithe milale lahan pana pasana
( Also Shivaji Mandir was an open air theatre earlier and even there some performances happened but D'silva High School's and King George's playground in Dadar East there the Sangeet Natak festivals happened and I got the chance to watch and experience them since my childhood.)
S: Tya nantar tithlya jya sanstha jyani halu halu kaam kela jasta mothya pramanat
tar tyacha madhye (Lalitkaladarsha) mhanje Bhalchandra Pendharkar yanchi sanstha jyancha Girgaum madhye Sahitya Sangaat tyancha kaam jasta hota pan aata te Matungyala rahatat aani jya sanstha chi nataka hoichi tya madhye Lalitkaladarshan, Sahitya Sangha Girgaum aani Sahakari Manoranjan, Parel kaamgar vastitli sangathana aahet pan tyanche khoop kahi prayog ithe hot aasat aani tyach barobar Natyasampada, Prabhakar Panshikaranchi sanstha aani Rangsharda Pratistha ji majhya vadalani sthapan keleli sanstha aahe. Hya sanstha che barech kahi prayog hya Mahotsavan madhana hot asat te tithe pahila milale
( Thereafter the companies/groups that worked their way slowly and did a lot of work among these was Lalitlkaladarshan that is Bhalchandra Pendharkar's company who has done a lot of work for the Sahitya Sangha in Girgaum but now he lives in Matunga, and the companies that performed among them Lalitkaladarshan, Sahitya Sangha Girgaum and Sahakari Manoranjan, Parel these are groups from the worker's localities but a lot of their performances used to happen, and along with them Prabhakar Panshikar's companay Natyasampada and Rangsharda Pratistha which my father established. these companies had a lot of the performances in this festival and I got an opportunity to watch them.)
TN: Yeh sab professional the ya? ( Were they all professionals?)
S: Professional
TN: Ya hobby jaise karte the? ( Or was it just a hobby?)
S: Hobby jaise nahi, professional hi nataka hot hoti ticket laavun aani ratra ratra ushira paryanta nataka chalaichi lok yeoon baghaiche aani agadi anandani mhanje jasa purvi chya kali mhatla jasa ratri natak suru jhali tar pahili gaadi milali tari chalel ashya pramane loka basoon natak enjoy karat hote aani pahat hote.
( Not hobby, these plays were professional they would be ticketed and the plays went on till late at night people would come and watch and they would enjoy and like they said in those days, if the play starts at night we can take the first train back home this is how people enjoyed the plays.)
Tithe Gadhya nataka hi kahi jhali. Atreyanchi nataka khoop kahi hot asat Atre Theatres hi pan sanstha karyarat hoti. Natyasampada aani ek aani ek Natyakadopasak Mandal mahnun khoop juni sanstha jyacha madhye tyancha naav aata pahila aathavt nahi Bhosle adnaav jyani hi sanstha aani Indumati Gotikar mahnun jya striyancha.. jya stree kalakarani kahi natakche paryog kele hote tar te sagle khoop karyagat hote.
( Some prose plays were also performed there. A lot of Atre's plays happened there Atre Theatres too was an acting company. Natyasampada and Natyakadopasak Mandal was an old company in which I don't remember his first name now his last name was Bhosle and there was Indumati Gotikar who... there were some plays by women so all of them were very active.)
S:Aani Kehsvrao Date khoop motha vyaktimatva Sangeet Natakatla, Gadya Natakatla saglyanche guru aslele te ithe Vijay Nagar ji building aahe station chya samor
( And Keshavrao Date a very big personality of Sangeet Natak, Prose Theatre he was a guru for all he lived in the Vijay Nagar building which is opposite the station)
SD: Dadar station chya samor aahe ( It is opposite Dadar station)
S: Tithe te rahat asat aani tyancha khoop kahi sahvas hya saglya lokana milala hota marga darshan milala hota Balachandra Pendharkaran pasana majya vadalan pasana sarvach lokana.
( He used to live and his all these people had got his support and his guidance right from Bhaldchandra Pendharkar, to my father and everyone.)
S:Tyamule Keshavrao Dateyana anubhavaila milala hya kala madhye. Sangeet Natakachi sagleech jadan ghadan (check) lahanpana pasana ashi hot geli ghari yaat le sagle Kalakar yet asat aani professionally hi nataka keli jaat hoti
( So I could experience Keshaverao Date in this era. I was exposed to Sangeet Natak since my childhood all the artists would come home and these plays were also done professionally.)
TN: Toh Natak mandal the? Natak company ( So these were theatre groups? Theatre Company?
SD: Ha Natak company, sanstha ( Yes, Theatre Company, sanstha)
S: Sanstha ( company)
SD: Tini aata kahi naava sageetli ( The names that she told you now)
S: Hya saglya sanstha ahet ( These were all Companies)
SD: Hya saglya Natya Sanstha aahet. ( These are all Theatre Companies)
S: Aani tyanchi nataka ithe vhaichi. ( And their plays happened here)
SD: Aani ajun ji tyachatlya barayach shya karyalat aahet. Jasa Natyasampada sangitla, Rangsharda he ajun hi Sangeet Natakache shows hi loka kartat.
( And some of them are still working like she said Natyasampada, Rangasharda they still do shows of Sangeet Natak.)
S: Sahitya Sangha Mandir
SD: Sahitya Sangha Mandir Girgaumvatla hyanche ajun hi shows chalu aahet aani Sangeet Natakche showsach chalu aahe tyanche. Tya lokanchi evdhi mothi tradition aahe.
(Sahitya Sangha Mandir in Girgaum, their shows are still going on and Sangeet Natak shows are still going on. They have a long tradition.)
SS: Toh yeh sab jageh jo aapne bataye D'silva school ya King George school (These places that you have spoken about D'silva school or King George school)
SD: Shivaji Mandir
SS: ya Shivaji Mandir yahan par kis tarah ke log deknne aate the? ( Or Shivaji Mandir what kind of people came to watch here?)
SD: Total Marathi middle class ha pushkal hi nataka baghaila yeyche and vishes sangaicha mhanje agadi baika streeya natoon thatoon yeycha natak pahaila tyana khoop anand vaatat ase ekhadi aapan sanala jasa jaato sajun vagere tasa agadi chaan baghaila and purvi ashi bheeti vatat nase ratri 8-8:30 la show suru jhala tar agadi pahate parayanta loka tyacha anand ghet hote.
( It was a total Marathi middle class crowd that would come to watch the plays and I must mention one thing that the women would come all dressed up to watch the play they would be very happy like you dress up during a festival it all looked very nice and earlier there was no fear the show would start at 8-8:30 at night and people would enjoy it till early morning.)
SD: Anni khoop mothe mothe gayak, gayika aikaila milat hote tya mule Shastriya Sangeetacha jo prasa (check) vadhla Mahasrashtrat tyacha faar motha contribution Sangeet Natakala aahe hyat kahi shankach nahi, vishesta Bal Gandharva, je Sangeet Natakache atyanta mahatvacha vyaktimatva he Mahimla je Dadarchya agdi bajucha upanagar tithech barich varsha...
( And one could listen to all the big singers (male & female) and so the reach of Classical music increased in Maharashtra and Sangeet Natak was a big contribution there's no doubt about that, especially Bal Gandharva, who was an important personality to Sangeet Natak he lived in Mahim which right next to Dadar
S: rahat hote.
SD: rahat hote, Bal Gandharva aani nantar Deodhar's aahet B. R Deodhar je jyani Sangeet Maharshtrat aanaila jasa Balkrishna Bua Yeselkar ( check) suruvat keli tya nantar Bhaskar Bua, B.R Deodhar nantar aamche, kon ga dusra... Paluskar hi sagli mansa hya shetratli aahet Bhatkhande aani Deodhar he tar Mumbaitlech ki tyani direct agdi Sangeet Natakshi tyancha sambandha nahi aala pan Maharashtrat Sangeet aanyancha aani te rujavyancha kaam khoop motha kela te Bhatkhand saheb aani Deodhar saheb.
(Bal Gandharva was living there, and then there were Deodhar's... B.R Deodhar who brought music to Maharashtra like Balkrishna Bua Ichalkaranilkar started it and after that Bhaskar Bua, B. R Deodhar and then our, who is that... Paluskar all these people are from this field. Bhatkhande and Deodhar were from Mumbai -they were not directly related to Sangeet Natak but to bring music into Maharashtra and to root it here was a big task and that was done by Bhatkhande and Deodhar saheb)
TN: Magar Bhaskarbua Bakhale ne khud composition likhe the na Sangeet Natak ke liye? ( But Bhaskar Bua Bakhle wrote a lot of compositions for Sangeet Natak's right?)
SD: Pushkal compositions Bhaskarbua Bakhle yani keli Bhaskarbuaana 3 gharanyachi mahiti hoti Gwalior, Jaipur aani Agra tar tyatli ji Jaipur chi gayaki ji Alladiya Khan Saheban kadane tyana milali hoti tyacha tyani compositons madhye natakatlya compositions madhye tyani tyacha roopantar kela.
( A lot of compositions Bhaskarbua Bakhle did. Bhaskarbua knew the music for 3 gharanas Gwalior, Jaipur and Agra and the music from Jaipur gharana which he got from Alladiya Khan Saab he included those compositions in the plays
Tyacha utkrushta udharan mhanje Svyamvar naavacha ek natak aahe tyache ajun hi prayog hotat Punyachi ek sanstha aahe Marathi Rangabhoomi mhanun tyanche ajun prayog hotat tyache. Tya jya Alladiya Khan Sahebanchya cheeza tya tyani Marathi pada natakatli Marathi bhashet ti lihoon pan tya pramanne chali karoon compose karoon hi loknana aikaila bhaag padla.
( The best example of that would the play Swayamvar and the performances happen even today. There is a group from Pune called Marathi Rangabhoomi they still have performances. He used Alladiya Khan Saab's compositions in he worte them as scenes in Marathi he composed it in that manner and gave the tunes and people could listen to it)
TN: Kiska natak tha woh Annasaheb Kirloskar ka? ( Was it Annasaheb Kirloskar's play?)
SD: Nahi Khadilkar, Dattasaheb Khadilkar. Svyamvar natak lihale Dattasaheb Khadilkarani pan Bhaskarbua Bakhlancha tyala music hota aani Alladiya Khan Saheb khoop chidle khoop ragavle ki majhya evdhya cheeza tu ashya natakat vapartos mhanje kai?
(No, Khadilkar, Dattasheb Khadilkar. Svyamvar was written by Dattasahen Khadilkar but Bhaskarbua Bakhle gave the music and Alladiya Khan Saheb was very angry he said how could you use my compositions like that in a play?)
Pan Bhaskar Bua mhanale ki tumhi aikaila ya aani ekda tyani tyana show la bolavla aani pahilya raanget Bhaskarbua basle hote aani tyani jenva te Bal Gandharvancha gaana aikle te itake khush jhale, mhanale khoop changla vaapar mhajya cheezancha tu khoop changla vaapar kelela aahes me khoop anandi aahe aani khoop changle kaam hey jhaalela aahe aani Bal Gandharvanan varta te behadd khush hote. Aani tyani anek prayogatana Alladiya Khan Saab ithe yeoon basat asat Bal Gandharvancha gaana aikaila
( But Bhaskarbua said you come and listen to it and he called him for the show once and Bhaskar Bua was sitting in the first row and when he heard Bal Gandharva's song he was so happy, said you have used my compositions very well and I'm very happy and this is a very good thing and he was very happy with Bal Gandharva. Alladiya Khan Saheb would come here for many shows to listen to Bal Gandharva's music.)
TN: Aap dekha hai? suna hai Bal Gandharva ( Have you seen? Have you heard Bal Gandharva?)
SD: Kis ko? ( Who?)
S: Bal Gandharvaana nahi ( Not Gandharva)
SD: Naahi amhi nahi ( Not we haven't)
S: Tyanchya utaar vayat pahila hota ( When he was getting old I saw him)
SD: Pahila hota pan, aikla nahi ( We saw him, but did not hear him sing)
S: Pan aikaila nahi milala, jya veli tyancha payacha problem hota na aani loka tyana uchloon tyaana stage var anoon basavaiche agadi tya awasthe madhye pahila pan aikaila shakyach navta. Mhanje tyancha jo kaal aahe toh lakshat gheta aamhala nahi aikaila milala. Agdi Uttar vayatlya bhoomika mhajya vadilaan ni baghitlya hotya, tyachamule aamhala te shakya nahi. Pan je vaachla aahe aani je lokaan kadun aikla aahe te matra itaka vilakshan aahe ki Bal Gandharva ultimate Sangeet Nataka saathi dusra naav nahi.
( But we didn't get to listen to him, when he had that leg problem people would carry him to the stage to sing I saw him in that condition but it was not possible to listen to him. I mean erif you consider his era then we couldn't listen to him. When he was getting old my father had seen those performances, so it wasn't possible for us. But what I have read and heard from people is so extraordinary that Bal Gandharva is ultimate there's no other name for Sangeet Natak)
TN: Master Krishanrao?
S: Aani tech, aani aata je sangitla ki Bhaskarbua ni je don shisya ghadavle mukhya yachat ek Bal Gandharva and dusra Master Krishnarao aani Bhaskarbua Bakhaleyancha ek vaishista asa ki Bal Gandharvana tyaani taalim detana tyani barobar natakatla gaana kasa rangvava ya padhatina deli aani Master Krishnaraona baithakicha gaana kasa rangvava ya padhatina
SD: Mehfil kaise hogi... te Masterana shikavla
( And him, and what he has said now that the main thing was Bhaskar Bua created two students one was Bal Gandharva and second was Master Krishnarao and one thing about Bhaskarbua while training Bal Gandharva he taught him how to sing for Theatre and while training Master Krishnarao he taught him how to sing for baithaks.
SD: How to sing for baithak (perforamances) )
S: Aani tayatuna hi Masterancha jo awaaz hota, awaazachi ji quality hoti te jyala mhanto paatal awaaz jasa bhaardasta awaaz nahi tyamule tyancha saathi Bhaskarbua Bhakleyani jyala madhyamachi gayaki mhantat mhanje Madhyam shadja karoon ashi compositions keli Masteran saathi specially, ki te aapo aap, karan te purvi mics navte tyamule without mic tumcha gaana shevat paryanta aikaila jaana.
( And Master's ( Krishanrao) voice and his voice quality was what we say thin voice it wasn't a heavy voice and so for him Bhaskarbua Bh akle what we call madhyam singing meaning with Madhyam shadja... he made such compositions for Master specially so that... because there were no mics earlier, so that music can be heard by the people on the last row.)
SD: Gaana bright hota na, awaaz thoda base kela ( The song becomes bright,, when you make the voice a little base)
S: tenva chi gayaki ( This is the music of that time)
SD: Ki it becomes brighter.
S: Te Bhaskarbuanchya vaishisthani tyani tyancha Sangeet denyacha. Aani tyamule tyani Sangeet Natakachya madhyamatoon anek raaga lok priya jhale, aani syavamvar natak particularly tyatla pratek gana mhanje loka tya gaanya varoon raaga olakhaila laagli.
( That was Bhaskarbua's distinct style of teaching music. And so through Sangeet Natak a lot of raaga's became popular and the play svayamvar and each song from that play people would recognise the raaga from the songs.
S: Sujanank (not clear), Natha ha majha (not clear) ha yaman aahe, mhanje lokaana te raaga olakhaila te gaana saangaila laagle loka. Te Natya Sangeetacha motha karya aahe ki classical musicghara ghara madhey jaoon pohchla te Natya Sangeeta mule.
( Not clear), Natha ha majha is raaga yaman people started naming the songs to recognise the raaga. This was because of the Natya Sangeet that classical music reached people's homes that was because of Natya Sangeet.
S: Saamnya lokana evdha classical music samjat naahi kinva aakalan hot nahi, pan sopa vatla easy vatla tyana. ( Common people did not understand classical music or they don't grasp it but they thought this was easy )
TN : Aur naye naye Sangeet Natak likh rahe na log? ( People are writing new Sangeet Natak's?)
S: Ha aata nahi aahe, hi ji parampara hoti mhanje ji suruvaatila Annasaheb Kirloskar, Deval... Govind Ballal Deval, Shilpa Krishna Kolatkar aani nantar Tatasaheb Khadilkar ase agadi khoop nataka lihali aani sangeet rangabhoomicha javal javal suvarna kaal mhanto tasa nirmaan jhala
( Not anymore, this tradition which was there in the begining by Annasaheb Kirloskar, Deval... Govind Ballal Deval, Shripad krishna Kolhatkar and later Tatasaheb Khadilkar they wrote a lot of plays and what we call musical theatre's golden period)
SD: Golden period
S: Ekdum golden period. Tyachyanantar thodasa Sangeet Natakacha kal badala aani 1930 nantar Mogul Rangnekar aani Acharya Atre asa don natakar aale tyani thoda pattern badala. Mama Warerkar mhanun ek natakkar hote tithun social nataka yayla laagli ji purvi pauranik, aitihasik nataka hoti ithun Mama Warerkar, Mogul Rangnekar aani Acharya Atre Hya teen natakaran mule social nataka aali. Nantar Jyotsnabai Ghore jenva natakan madhey kaam karaila laglya tenva pasana striya toh paryanta purushach striyancha bhoomika karat hoti. Jenva Jyotsnabai aalya tenva pasana natak badala naveen nataka lihli geli aani baikancha svar aala
( Absolute golden period. After that the trend in Sangeet Natak changed and in 1930 Mogul Ragnekar and Acharya Atre these two playwrights changed the pattern. Mama Warerkar was another playwright he did social plays, which were earlier mythological historical plays Mama Warerkar, Moga Rangnekar and Acharya Atre these three playwrights brought in social plays. Later Jyotsnabai Bhole when she started working in plays that's when women came into theatre, till then men played the women's roles. When Jyotsnabai came since then the plays changed, new plays were written and women set the tone.
SD: Kaal khoop tya velela badala, yudh jhala hota, swatantryacha kaal jorat hota swatantra milavnyachi ji gurmi hoti khoop jorat hoti toh sampoorna jo badlacha jo asa kaal hota toch Sangeet Natakani... pan traditional je pauranik natak hota te badalat badlat samajik tyacha sthar hot gela tya pramane tyache music pan badala ha tyatla bhaag. Purvi agdi classical base asleli ji gaani hoti ti light thodi light music kade thodi jhukaila lagli. Pan taycha jo baaz hota jo tyacha Shastriya Sangeet base hota toh matra badala nahi.
( The time had changed a lot at that point, a war had happened it was he time of freedom and the desire to get freedom was really strong that whole period of change was replicated by Sangeet Natak... but the traditional mythological theatre it changed and became some social and the music also changed. Earlier the songs which had a classical base veered more towards light music. But the base was Shastriya Sangeet that did not change.)
SD: Toh base kayam theoon tyani thodya tyacha Lalita chaali kelya he tya velicha Sangeetkaarncha vaishishta.
( They retained the base and they made the tunes like raaga Lalit this was the genius of the musicians of that time.)
S: Tya nantar mahje vadil Vidyadhar Gokhale, Vasant Kanetkar, Purshottam Dangekar (check) ashe he natakar aale tyani punha ekda jenva naveen padhati ni natak lihli mhanje junyacha... junyatla je changla aahe te ghetla. Mhanje thodasa change kela kaala pramane aani ji nataka aali... tar ti punha itaki Sangeet Rangabhoomi khoop jomani 1960 te 1980-85 parayanta khoop jorat nataka chalat hoti tya nantar matra kaal asa aala aahe aata paryanta ki agdi ek kinva don naveen nataka lihli geli.
( After that my father Vidyadhar Gokhale, Vasant Kanetkar, Purshottam Dangekar (not sure) these playwrights wrote the plays in a new style they retained the good things from the old plays. They made some changes as per the time and the plays that came... once again music theatre was back with a new zeal from 1960 to 1980-85 the plays were doing very well but after that only there have been only one or two new plays have been written)
Naveen nahich, Chaudah Ranga Ek Jhala (not sure) itkach natak naveen lihla gela tyamule aata kai hotay Sangeet Natak je aamhi kaam kartoi aata tar he natak chalavtana junyatli ji aata jamtil ti nataka keli jatat, naveen natak lihla jaat nahi. Tyamule Jitendra Abhishekin nantar naveen composer koni aalach nahi Sangeet Rangabhoomi var asa jhala aahe. Tyamule aata Sangeet Rangabhoomi thodi maage padlya saarkhi jhali aahe. Jenva naveen natakar nirmaan hoteel naveen composer nirmaan hoteel tenva kharya arthani punha ekda Sangeet Natak shuru hoeel asa vatata.
( No new ones, Chaudah Ranga Ek Jhala (not sure) just one new play was written so what happens now the work that we do in Sangeet Natak so while working on these
the old plays that work those plays are being done, no new play has been written. Hence, it's like there is no new composer after Jitendra Abhisheki. So it seems like the Music Theatre is lagging behind. When we have new playwrights, new composers that's when Sangeet Natak (Musical Drama) will be revived in the true sense.)
SS: Aapke khudke ke jo ke memories hai kaun kaunsa natak hai jo aapko bahut yaad hai, ya bahut aapka priya natak hua tha... ya kuch actors jo aapke personal favourites the.
( What are your memories which of the plays do you remember the most, or which is your favourite... or actors who are your personal favourites)
SD: Jaasti karun aamhala Ram Marathe aani Chota Gandharva he aamche atishay aavadte gayak nat jyaana uttam classical base hota. Ram Marathe tar he tar gavaich, pan Gavai asun suddha tyancha khoop motha contribution Sangeet Nataka saathi hota aani pushkal raaga tyancha mule prachalit jhale, particularly Adhir Bhairav (check) ha raaga faar lokaana mahiti navta toh Ram Maratheanchya compostion mule lokana mahiti jhala. Jogkauns ha raaga jo lokana kami mahiti hota, Jaganath Bua Purohit tyanche guru Ram Maratheanche tyanchya mule kahi raaga lokpriya jhale tasech Chota Gandharva.
( We liked Ram Marathe and Chota Gandharva the most, they were our favourites singer actors, they had a great classical base. Ram Marathe was mainly a classical singer but apart from being a classical singer he made a huge contribution to Sangeet Natak and a lot of raagas became prevalent beca use of him, particularly Ahir Bhairav not many people knew about this raaga people knew about it because of Ram Marathe's some compositions. Jogkauns this raaga people knew little about it, Jaganath Bua Purohit was Ram Marathe's guru some raagas became popular because of him.)
TN: Aur composition kaun karte the? ( And who would do the compositions?)
S: Khud Ram Bhau ( Ram Bhau himself)
TN: Khud karte the ( He would do it)
SD: Khud Ram Marathe(Ram Marathe himself), he was composer as well as singer actor too and same case with Chota Gandharva. Chota Ghandharvana pan suddha uttam prakarchi taalim hoti. (Chota Gandharva too had great training.)
TN: Unka naam kya tha? ( What was his name?)
SD: Chota Gandharva Saudagar
S: Saudgar Nagnath Gore complete (name)
SD: Complete naav Suadagar naav tyancha aadnaav.Pan atishay goad awaaz aitshay kamalicha goad awaaz aani tya awaazat khoop range awaala khoop mothi aani tyanchi khoop compositions ashich Kirwani, Madhukauns madhe pan aahe na?
( Complete name Saudagar was his last name. But really sweet voice, extremely sweet voice and that voice had a big range and a lot of his compositions like this Kirwani, even in Madhukauns right?)
S: Nahi (No) Guni Kauns
SD: Gunikauns, Gunikauns, Kirwani ashya kahi raagan madhye tyani khoop sundar compositions keleli aahet aani te raaga tya natakatla chaleen mule natakatlya padan mule lokpriya jhali. Ashe barechshe Knaavacha Basant Kalawati.
( Gunikauns, Gunikauns, Kirwani he made some good compositions in these raagas and these raagas became popular because of the tunes in the play and the songs in the play. There were many like this Kalwati... Basant Kalawati)
Vasant Desai mhanun music director hote aamchya kade mhanje V Shantaram che music director tyani kahi raaga je kahi introduce kele ki tyamule lokana mahiti jhali. Kalawati ha raaga tya manani mahiti navta ikade toh Vasant Desainchya mule jhala. Ata asa ha jo raaga prasar aahe ha hyala Shastriya Sangeetacha jo prasar jhala tyala Marathi natakcha khoop motha contribution aahe aani sudevani sagli loka Mumbai, Dadar, Mahim Girgaum hya bhaagat rahanaichi
( There was Vasant Desai the music director he was V Shantaram's music director he had introduced some raagas and so people knew about them. People didn't know about raaga Kalawati here because of Vasant Desai it became popular. So the raagas that spread the spread of Classical Music Marathi Theatre had a big contribution to it and luckily all the people were from Mumbai, Dadar, Mahim, Girgaum)
S: Aamahala khoop anubhavaila milala tasa aamcha ghari yena jaana hota hya sarva lokancha tyamule hyana khoop javaloon anubhavta aala, nihalta aala te bolaiche te gappa madhane dekhil khoop kahi goshti miloon gelya mhanje Bhalchandra Pendharkar, Ram Marathe, Chota Gandharva, Jaymala Shiledar hi ji mothi naava Sangeet Rangabhoomi varchi he sagle ghari yet jaat asat nehmi tya mule tyancha khoop sahwaas hi milala
(We experienced a lot of this...because all these people visited our house so we experienced all of this closely, observe it when they used to chat we learnt of things from there means Bhalchandra Pendharkar, Ram Marathe, Chota Gandharva, Jaymala Shiledar all the big names of the Music Theatre would come home often so we got a lot of their support.)
Pudhchya kalat jar awadicha mhanal tar Jitendra Abhisheki hey ekach naav ki jyani itaki devatva purna aani asa Sangeet khute aikailach nahi milala khoop aakarshak aani jyala mhanto atishay uttam Kalpana shakti junyat la khoop kahi chaan gheoon naveen itaka sundar nirman kela aani aaj hi naveen peedhila amhi jenva ata... Natya Sangeet diploma jo suru kela aahe, amhi kaam karto tar naveen peedhala compositions fakta Abhiksheki. Patkan konala jar gaani tehvli 4-5tar patakan Abhishekincha composition select kela jata.
(A favourite from the later era one name that comes to mind Jitendra Abhisheki who
was so divine and you would not get to hear music like that anywhere it was very attractive and what we call very imaginitve he would retain the old but create something new that was so good and even today the new generation the Natya Sangeet diploma that we have started, the work we do the new generation likes Jitendra Abhisheki compositions. If we ask them to pick a song from 4-5 songs they will pic a Jitendra Abhisheki composition )
SD: Juni compositions gheoon ki thod mod ke kuch kiya nahi unhone. Te sabe theoon toh jo base aahe junya composition cha toh theoon tyani svathachya Kalpana shaktini uttam prakar che compostions kele aahet Abhishekini. Ki asthaye ekhadya padh aahe taycha tar Ashtaye ekhadya raagat pan related to tyach raagala antara veglya tarini jaato ashya padhatini je kahi compositions aahet ti atishay goad athishay sundar aahe and khoopach lokapriya aahe. Jitendra Abhisheki hey faar mahatvacha naav)
( He didn't breakdown the old compositions. He kept the old composition as the base he used his imagination and created some great compositions. If it's asthayi a song if in one raaga it's asthayi but related to the same raaga the antara is of a different kind such compositions were very sweet and very popular. Jitendra Abhisheki is an important name.)
S:Aani ganayara saathi khoop challenging ... compositions... karan pratekala vatata aapan tyancha composition ghyava ( It was very challenging for the singer... the compsitions...because everyone felt we should take his compositions)
SD: aani khoop challenging... taalala... tyancha composition ghyava ( It was very challenging... rhythm... everyone wanted to take those compositions)
TN: Aur sab samajik natak? ( All were social plays?)
S: Samajik hoti asa nahi, karan Matsyagandha sarkha pauranik natak pan tyani kela. Gavaiya chya jeevan na gaajlela, natak Kaityar Kaaljat Ghusli main tyancha je Sangeet aahe te kahi samajik natka hoti, pan ashi pan nataka tyani keli aani khoop mahanje tyancha Sangeeta mule kahi nataka... Sangeet mule jasti chalali asa mhanta yetil itaka apratim sangeet.
( Not all plays were social plays, because he did a mythological play like Matsyagandha. Based on a musicians life he did a play Katiyar Kaaljat ghusli his main music some were social plays but he also did such plays and we can say that, a lot of his plays worked because of the music because it was such great music)
S: Vasantrao Deshpande he khoop motha naav tyatla Katiyar madhye tyani kaam kela aani je Sangeet Rangabhoomi junya kaala pasana chalu hoti ti Katiyar parayanta pan tya nantar shevatcha natak mhanje (not clear) ki jit paryanta yeoon 85 saala paryanta ki jyala aapan mhanto na 500-600 prayog jhale jya natakanche...
( Vasantrao Deshpande was a very big name he worked in Katiyar and the Music Theatre of the old days which upto Katiyar but the last play was (not clear) upto that in the year 85' these are plays that had about 500-600 perforamances...)
SD: Professionally te changla aahe ( They were good professionally)
S: professionally
S: Kahi kahi natakanche 1000-1000 prayog jhale itake prayog jhale ki agadi te natak nischit yashsasvi mhanta yeta tar ashi nataka 85 parayanta aali nantar durdevyani naven nataka nahi aali.
( Some plays had about 1000 perforamances so many perforamnces that you can call that play a definite success there were such plays till 85' later unfortuantely there were no new plays.)
SD: Aata khoop changle composer aahet, khoop changle gaanare aahet
( Now there are many good composers, there are good singets...)
S: Lekhak nahit ( There are no writers)
SD:Lekhak nahit, ha problem aahe ( There are no writers that's the problem)
SD: Changla kasdaar lihana aani Sangeet Natak lihaila ek vegli ek swatachi ashi ek style pahije ki tyachat ti sagla Sangeetacha itake aata sahaj aala pahije. Sangeet tyacha madhey odhoon kadhun aanlele Sangeet nahi tya kathe madhna te aapoaap asa baher aala pahije, sangeet asa je pahije na asa lihnaari loka nahit. Aaj aata amhi dogha jaana ek tumhala jasa sangitla don varshacha Sangeet Natakacha related aamhi diploma kelela aahe aani geli 10 varsha jawal jawal 400 mula muli amchya kade shikoon geleli aahet aani tyacha Mumbai, Pune, Nashik evdhya thikani aamcha tyacha prasar jhala aahe Thanyat itkya thikani aamhi shikvaila jaato.
( Good substantial writing and to write Sangeet Natak you need an individual style to write Sangeet Natak which should encompass everything about music. Music should come naturally to it, not something that is forced. It should emerge from the story itself, that's the kind of music it needs and we there no writers to write like this. Today the two of us like I told you sometime back for 3 years we hav created a diploma in Sangeet Natak and for the 10 last years at least 400 girls and boys have learnt from us and it has spread to Mumbai, Pune, Nashik and we teach at so many places.)
Tar tya tyatli mula muli changle compose karnare sagle evdhe aamchya kade aahet pan tya manani changla natak ajun ek milat nahi, ki he kela ki khoop aaplyala kahi tari tyachat na deta yeel lokana asa kahi nahi. Ajun hi kama (check) nahi milat nahi khoop shodh ghenyacha prayatna karto aahe pan tasa hot nahi. Arthat ha problem sagli kadech aahe, literature cha problem it is everywhere agadi tumhi US bagha kinva Londonchya rangabhoomi var pan ha problem aahe aata te rahilela nahi aahe tevdha. Pan ha aahe matra, aata aamcha kai jhala aamhi khoop juna khoop changla aikla aahe. Tyamule naveen suddha he kartana thoda shodhak drushti lagte arre he hoeel ka (not clear) asa hota.
( The boys and girls from there we have such good composers but we still haven't managed to do a good play that if we do this we can give something to the people but nothing like that. Even today we can't find ( not clear) we have really tried to look but it doesn't happen. This problem exists everywhere, the problem of literature is everywhere even if you look at the US or the London Theatre even they have this problem it's not the same any more. It exists, what has happened with us is that we have heard really good old/classic music. So when we want to make something you need have a view that's seeking something will this happen like this.)
TN: Toh aap bol rahe ki Sangeet Natak ka taste abhi tak hai ( You are saying there is still a taste for Sangeet Natak?
SD: Ha chalu hai ( Yes, it's there)
TN: Logon mein taste toh hai? ( People have the taste)
SD: Hai, hai abhi ( Yes, but now...)
TN: Magar woh naya natak nahi mil raha hai ( But one can't find a new play?)
SD: Naya play likha hua nahi mila matlab Sanhita mhanto aamhi Marathitit Sanhita
script of the play ( We haven't found a new written play meaning what we call the script in Marathi)
S: Te milat nahi ( We can't find that)
SD: Woh accha nahi milta, jisme kuch Sangharsh ho (We haven't found a good one which has some conflict in it)
TN: Kyun nahi mil raha hai abhi? ( Why haven't you found it?)
S: Nahi don goshti aahet, tar ek tar vyavasaik drushtya tyala kahi utpanacha saadhan naahi mhanje je changle lekhak aahet aamhi kiti vela request kela asa lekhak ki amchya sathi ekhada ek naveen natak lihoon dya. Tycha varti paise milnyachi goshtach nahi te main karan tyamule tithe koni valat nahi aani jari valla tari te producer kadun tyacha te yash asa hi yash milaila jara kami aahe.
(S: There are two things, one is the business point of view it has no means to yield or earn meaning the good writers that are there we have requested them so many times writers that why don't you write a Sangeet Natak for us. There's no scope to get money on that's the main reason, that's why no one want's to go there and if they do if we take put the producer's share out of it there's very little to get success.)
Dusri goshta kai hota Sangeet natak juni samajha aamhi ek navya swaroopat keli, tar amhi jenva charcha karto, tya naveen peedhela aata ti kathanaka avdat nahi juni naveen peedheechi ji mula aahet ti mhanaar, kai tech tech sagla faar goad goad asta Sangeet Natakat amhala avadat nahi tyana...
( The second thing is if we do the old Sangeet Natak in a new style, when we discuss it with the new generation they don't like those old plots/ stories they say why the same thing again, they say it's all too sweet and nice in Sangeet Natak we don't like it.)
SD: Woh Krishna, Narad rehta hai na woh abhi bas hi gaya swabhavik aahe, naturally
( That Krishna, Narad enough of that, it's natural)
S:Tya lokana te tyachashi evdha tyachashi relate ( These people they don't relate to them)
SD: Kuch galat nahi hai ( Nothing is wrong in that)
S: Ma tyancha drushtini kashi kathanaka naveen yeoodet, bhasha naveen asu dya
aamchi basha pahije hi je magni aahe ti puri hot nahi aani sagla main karan hech aahi ki tyacha var aarthik yash nahi aani asa hi yash navlokik milaila aaj serial chi likhaan kelya var kinva cinema cha likhaan kela tar te jasti naav aahe. Sangeet Natak he tya manani limited audience purta aahe asa itaka mass chi hi goshta hovu shakat nahi tyamule khara problem jhala aahe.
( From their point of view there should be new stories, the language should be new it should be our language all these demands don't get fulfilled and the main reason is that there is no financial success and if you want to get famous these days you wrote for tv serials or films. Sangeet Natak is only for a limited audience it cannot become a thing for the masses that's why it is a problem.)
SD: Shevti sagli ganita arthik he tyala kiti success aahe hyacha vartich sagla aata mojla jata, tyala kahi kaal jau dyava laagel ek hammer karava laagtil 50 prayog, 50 show jenva tumhi hammer karal tya velela te kuthe tari natak chalel asa vaatel pan 50 shows hammer karaicha taakat pahije na...paishya
( After all the calculations are about money how successful it will it all depends on that, it needs some time and have about 50 performances, when you hammer 50 shows that's when you feel the play is going somehwere but you have the strength to hammer 50 shows.)
S: Aani jyancha kade takat aahe na tyancha kade tatva nahi ha main problem aahe ( And the one's who have the strength they don't have the principle( check) this is the main problem
SD: Ha ( yes)
S: Pahilya jya sanstha hotya Sahitya Sangha Mandir, Lalit Kaladarshan, Natyasampada, hya sansthan ni mhanje jyani itaka vaibhav bhagitla aata Pendharkarancha udharan dila tar Pandit Raj Jagnath chya velala aksharsha tyancha gharat notanchya thappyabaghitlya aahet tyani, evdha vaibhao baghitla pan tech don natakat evdha paisa gela pan nirmitit kuthla kasur nahi aani tech tyana ti jaaga sodun Matungyala rahila lagla
( The groups that were there earlier Sahitya Sangh Mandir , Lalit Kaladarshan, Natyasampada all these groups so much prosperity if I gave the example of Pendharkar during Pandit Raj Jagnath his house had piles of notes, he has seen so much prosperity but there were no compromises in the production and then he left that place and was staying at Matunga.
pan tad jhod nahi keli kuthli natak changla mhanje changlach production aala tyancha aaj tasa tatvani vaagnari mansa nahi rahili aata sagla marketing cha jamana jhala tyamule jo to jyachat aaplyala kahi tari nakki fayda aahe tar karu nahi tar keval ek changla kaam kartoy aani te karaila pahije mhanun koni karat nahi.
( But he didn't compromise the play has to be a good production today the people don't work with the same principles. It is all about marketing these days and so everyone will do something that profits them not because they are doing some good work and they should do it.
S: Nokri sambhalun kaam karnare kalakar suddha tatva ni vaagtana nahi disat
( The one's who have a job even they don't have any principles.)
SD: Kharach ( It's true)
S: Hi khari gosht aahe. Purvi asa navta mi mahjya vadalan varoon sangu shakte ki loksatet tyani nokri keli aani amhi nehemi saangto ki tyancha natakat kaam karnar mhanje ek Mandarmala tyani lihalela natak je natak lihyalavar natak jenva production aala tya natya shrustitli pahili bus vikat ghetli, Natya Mandar hya sanstheche chaalak Rajaram Shinde tya eka natakachya profit var
( It's a true story. Earlier it wasn't like this I can say this about my father he worked for Loksatta and we always say and when one worked in their play he wrote this play Mandarmala this play that he wrote this play and after he wrote this play and when it came into production Natya Mandar's owner bought bought the first bus in the world of theatre based on the profits of this one play.)
tya eka natakacya profit var Ram Marathe yaani Thanyat bangla baandhla mag tyach natakchya profit var majhya vadalni aamhi chaalit rahat hoto na aamhala kuthe ase block devu shakle nahi ghari nehmi kai mhanaiche tumhi Sangeet Natak kartai na ma aaplya kadana madat. Mala kai kami aahe mala nokri aahe jyana nokri nahi aani jyancha charitaartha avalambun aahe tyana vatala tar tyani royalty dyavi tyani kadhi hi lekhakachi royalty magitli nahi kona kade svatah shevat parayanta train madhana ashe kapdi pishvi jayche yayche itake sadhe panani rahileli mansa aamhi khoop javaloon baghitli tar tyacha mule aata tashi loka disat nahi tevdhi tatva ni vaaganari.
( One the basis of the profit from that one play Ram Marathe built a bungalow in Thane and from the profits of the same play my father, we were staying in a chawl he didn't buy a flat at home he would always say you are working on Sangeet Natak then that's our contribution. I don't need anything I have a job the one's who don't have a job and their livelihood depends on this, if they feel they should give the royalty he never asked for royalty from anyone for being the writer. Right upto the end he would travel in the train with his cloth bag. Such people who lived such a simple life we have seen them so closely and you don't find people like that anymore who live with such principles.)
Pan ek te hi tya hi barobar saangte ki je pramanikpana kaamatla jenva disto lokana tar aamhi jenva jenva avhaan karto
( One more thing I want to say along with that when they see honesty in the work whenever we have called upon people...)
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TN: Aur Ram Marathe kab sune the aap? ( when did you listen to Ram Marathe?)
S: Ram Marathe majhya shalecha jeevana pasana pachvi -sahvi pasana aamhi aikto aahe aani majhya college chya varshat mhanje me sangeet vishay gheunach MA pass kela. Tar mala athvat nahi ki Mumbaitli Manek Varma aani Ram Marathe hi doon aaamchi agdi devaitaek hi mehfil aamhi sodli nasel jithe kuthe gaana asel tithe saglya mehfili aiklya itaka Ram Maratheancha gaana aani Manek Varma hya doghacha gaana khoop avadaicha aani khoop mhanje tyachashi kai mhanto adarsh gaana asa kayam tyancha vatat gela aani khoop aikla
(Ram Marathe right from my school days from 5th-6th I've been listening and in my college days I took music as my subject during my MA. I don't remember if I ever missed a perforamce by Manek Varma and Ram Marathe in Mumbai. Wherever they performed I have heard all the performances I liked them so so much and I always considered that as ideal singing and heard it a lot.)
TN: Kaunsa kaunsa saal tha yeh? 70's mein? ( Which year was this?)
S: 70 chya hi aadi 68 saala pasana..68-69-70-71-72 hi varsha khaas 3-4 varsha tar khoop mhanje khoop mehfili aiklya aani Ram Marathencha Brahmin Sabhet kayam tharlela asat aani he don kalakar ase hote ki Ganpati chya diwasat 10 diwasat 15 karyakram hoiche kayam karyakram asaiche pan jawal paas kuthe hi gaana asla tar jaanarach kadhi mehfil sodhnaar nahi.
( Before 70' from 68 onward...68-69-70-71-72 these years for 3-4 years I heard a lot of performances of him and Ram Marathe would always sing at Brahmin Sabha and these two artists during 10 days of Ganesh festival they would have 15 programmes they always had programmes and if it was anywhere around then we I would go and not miss even one)
Ram Marathenchya babtith asa hoicha ki Mandarmala natak jenva hote tenva Mandarmalache dupari prayog asat bahergavi daura asla tar loka asa karaichi ki dupari prayog aahe tar ratrichi mehfil karaiche, ratricha natak asla tar sakalchi mehfil karaiche
(What happened with Ram Marathe is when the play Mandarmala happened that time the shows outside were in the afternoon when they they were travelling so what people would do is they would decide to have a performance at night and if the play was in the night the performance would happen in the morning)
khara mahnje tech tyana jasti mhanje tya manani Ram Bhau laukar gele tyala hech karan mhanje khoop tyani gaile mhanje aata sarkhya ashya ek don taasachya mehfili nahi doghancha hi. Ratri 9:30 gana suru jhala 10:00 tar pahate 4 paryanta chaalnar. Aani agdi lagnat, mujit vagere suddha gaiche...
( Actually the reason Ram Bhau passed away early the reason for that was because he sang a lot not like nowdays 1- 2 hour performances both of them. The would start at 9:30 in the night it would go on till 4 in the morning and they would also sing at weddings, thread ceremony.)
SD:Nahi donhi kalakaar ji naava sangitli te Maharashtrat khoop lokapriya donhi. Ram Marathe, Manek Varma mhanje lokana te gharatle vatatche ki aaplyach gharatle kon aaple kaka aahet, aapli aatya aahe itake te jawalche vatat aslya mule ekhadi lokancha prem tyamule. Ratri ekhadi mehfil aahe tar parat sakali natakcha he thevaicha tasa same Manek taieen var pan suddha khoop strain khoop padla. Itakya top la idea astana tila motha azaar pan jhala mhanje... memgitis cha attack aala khoop motha azaar pan aksharsha stree asun aani javal javal chaar mulit tya chaughicha naava ahet tya.
( Both the artists that she mentioned were favourites in Maharashtra. Ram Marathe and Manek Varma people thought they were their own like someone from their family like an uncle or aunt they felt like they were so close to you and so people's love for them. So even if there was a performance at night they would have show of the play in the morning and just like that there was too much strain on Manektai. When she was right on the top she had a serious disease.... she had a meningitis attack a grave disease and being a woman and she had four daughters all four of them are well known
Tar tya chaar mulincha tyancha baalanpan sagla gharatlya saglyancha vyavasthit karna tich evdha sambhala teena evdha gaana kela faar mothi goshta aahe tyamule toh strain padla nantar mag 72 nantar ticha awaazwar parinam jhala meningitis mule thoda sharirik kahi vyadincha problem jhala. Tar hi tya lokancha motha contribution asun (not clear) aata thoda ti gaanya mule thoda set back jhala tyana nahi mhanun.
( So taking care of four daughters and looking after the house, she handled all of it and she sang it was a very big deal and so that caused the strain and after 72' it affected her voice meningitis it affected her body. So these people contributed in a big way but because of too much it set them back. )
TN: Aur mehfil main Hindustani sangeet aise woh composition gaate the ya Sangeet Natak ka thoda bhi? ( During the performance did they sing Hindustani music compositions or a little Sangeet Natak?)
S: Nahi mehfilit main classical pehle... ( No in a mehfil mainly classical)
SD: Shurwaat ( Beginning)
S: suruwat tar tyani doghancha pattern hi saral.. (Both of them when they began it was a straight pattern)
SD: Ha ( Yes) same pattern
S: Ki pahila raaga dyaycha ( First they could sing one raaga...)
SD: Khayal, bada (big) khayal
S: Tya nantar mag ekhadi thumri asel tar, nantar Natya Geet, mag bhajan asa sadharan toh pattern asaicha kinva ek Khayal jhalya var, ek chota Khayal, Natya geet bhajan hya padhatani doghancha hi.
( And then a thumri if there was one, then Natya Geet, then devotional song so generally this was the pattern otherwise after one Khayal, one small khayal then Natya geet and then bhajan this way both of them)
SD: Yeh jo pattern hai na yeh Maharashtra main bahut hi lokpriya hai aap Panditji ko bhi sune honge?
( This pattern is very popular in Maharashtra you have listened to Panditji)
S: Bhimsen Joshi
SD:Bhimsenji..Bhimsenjincha pan haach pattern pahila motha Khayal, mag ekhadi thumri, Natyapad kinva abhang, marathi vithalacha abhang ha sant mag parat interval nantar ek Chandrakauns vagere motha Khayal, uske baad asa thumri he ha pattern saglyancha tasach hota purvichya kaali.
( Bhimsenji also had the same pattern first a big khayal, then a thumri, a dramasong or a poem a Marathi abhang... then interval and then again a Chandrakauns etc. big kahayal and then a thumri so this pattern this was the pattern for everyone in those days.)
TN: Aur sab log Natya geet gaate hai? ( And everyone sang Natya Geet?)
SD: Gaate hi the... Gaate hi the ( Yes they did sang.. they did sing)
TN: Abhi? ( Now?)
S: Purvi gaat hote aata nahi... aata nahi ( They would sing it earlier not anymore... not anymore)
TN: Abhi itna nahi sunte ( Now you don't hear it)
SD: Aata kami jhala ( It's become less now)
S: Toch problem jhala Sangeet Nataka sathi ki Ram Marathe mhanje durdevani asa jhala ki sagle guru loka aahet aata tya nantar che te sangaila lagle Sangeet Natakat kaam karu naka awaaz kharab hoto. Aani dusri gosta mhanje aata awaaz kharab hoto hi faar khoti goshta aahe karan, suruvatila kai hota without mic bolaila lagaicha tenva kai theek aahe ki bolaicha aani gaicha tyacha he nahi saglyavar nantar mic system aalyavar kahi problem navta.
( That's the problem for Sangeet Natak that Ram Marathe means unfortunately it so happened that all the guru's after them they would say don't work in Sangeet Natak it ruind the voice. And the other thing actually this thing about it ruins the voice is a lie what happened earlier you had to speak without mics so that time it was okay it would cause some strain on the voice but after the mic system came in there was no problem.)
Pan main pratek jana Ram bhauncha kai jhala asa udharan detat. Hyacha karan ek asa jhala ki Sangeet Natak Akademi cha je award milta dar velela vaig vaiglya shetrat kaam karnaryala ek varsha asa jhala Ram Bhau he khoop top la hote jenva mehfilcha mhanje Badshah agdi mhnaiche hya velela C R Vyas te pan uttam gayak pan tyaana Shastriya gayakacha paritoshik milala aani tyach varshi Ram Bhauna Sangeet Natakacha, Natya Sangeeta saathi award milala te classical gaanryana khoop gochala (check) ki evdha asa hyana classical saathi award nahi milala.
( But everyone would give his example look what happened to Rambhau. The reason for this was the Sangeet Natak Akademi award which is given to people from different fields one year Rambhau he was at the top people called him the Badshah of Mehfil at that time C R Vyas even he was a great singer but he got the award for classical music and Rambhau got the award for Sangeet Natak, for Natya Sangeet. That hurt a lot of people that inspsite of being so good he didn't het an award for Classical Music.)
Natya Sangeet duyyam maanla jaicha tyacha mule loka mhane kai jhala tumhi classical gaanare asun jau naka Natya Sangeetat jau naka asa guru lok sangaila laagle. Aani tithoon tayari cha gaanare koni Natya Sangeeta kade vale nase jhale mhanun Ram Bhauenche upkar aahet te tya saathi ki tyani Sangeet Natakat kaam kela kai kai Nataka ashi yetat aata Kaityar aahe ki Vasantrao Deshpanyancha role aahe Vasantrao Deshpandyani pan uttam Shastriya Sangeet gayak pan tari tyani natakat kaam kela tyamule ek tayaari cha gaana lokana aikaila milala.
( Natya Sangeet was considered secondary and so people would say you sing classical why do you want to go to Natya Sangeet? A lot of guru's said don't go for Natya Sanegeet so the trained singers did want to turn to Sangeet Natak and so we are grateful to Ram Bhau he worked in Sangeet Natak some plays are such that for example Katiyar Vasantrao Deshpande's role. Vasantrao was a great classical singer but still he worked in plays and so people could hear some trained singing.)
Nantar aata kahi gaani ashi aahet ji classical base varchi aahe jithe Basant bahar sarkha raaga gaicha aahe kinva Katiyar madhla Surya (not clear) chaar raaga mix kelili ji bandish ti gaichi aahe hey tumhala set karoon nahi deta yet gaana tyala thoda tari original classical yayla pahije
( Then there are some songs which are classical base where you have the Basant Bahar raaga or the song from Katiyar (not clear) a bandish which is a mix of of four raagas you can just set these songs you need to know a little bit of classical singing for that)
Classical singers Natya Sangeeta kade valat nahit. Ha aata nantar chya kaalat jasa mehfilit farak jhala aata mehfil kuthe hoti 1.5 taas 2 taas tyachat ek motha Khayal jhala , ek chota kahyal jhala ki intervalo farat faar ek khayal bhajan sampla gaana. Aata mehfili pan evdhya kuthe hotat.
( But Classical singers don't turn to Natya Sangeet. These days just like there is a difference in the performance now the mehfil(performances) are for about 1.5 hours or 2 hours in that there is one long Khayal one short Khayal and then interval at the most one more Khayal and one devotional song and it's done nowadays there are not too many mehfils)
Tasa sagla badal sagli kade jhala aahe nataka pan 2 aanki jhali sagli kadech fast life mule ha badal jhala pan main problem jasa lekhak nahi tase classical uttam base aslele kalakaar Natya Sangeeta akde valat nahi. Ha dusra ek problem jhalela aahe Sangeet Nataka saathi.
( That's how things have changed everywhere even the plays are in two parts everywhere because of the fast life this has been the change but the main problem like there are no writers same way there are no artists with a great classical base who turn to Natya Sangeet. This is another problem for Sangeet Natak.)
SS: Thoda aur aap jaise jaise aap bade hoye kaun kaun se jagah jaate the music ya Sangeet Natak dekhne matlab jagaho ka naam thoda agar aap batayenge?
( As you grew up what were the places that you would to for music or to watch Sangeet Natak can you tell us the names of the places?)
SD: Girgaum madhye Mumbai Marathi Sahitya Sangh aahe aani Girgaum, Bhartiya Vidya Bhavan, Chowpatty chya tithe, tya nantar Trinity Club mahnun tumhi naava aikla asel tithe agdi Masteran pasun, Bhaskarbuan pasun, Alladiya Khan Saheb pasun Thirakhwa Khan Saheb sagli loka tithe vaajwun geli aahet. Ravi Shankarji khoop motha nahi aahe chota hall aahe. Nantar Deodhar school of music
( In Girgaum there is Mumbai Marathi Sahitya Sangh and Girgaum, Bhartiya Vidya Bhavan, near Chowpatty and then there was Trinity Club you would have heard and there right from Master, Bhaskar Bua, even Alladiya Khan Saheb Thirakwa Khan Saheb everyone has played there even Ravi Shankarji. It's not too big it's a small hall. Then there was Deodhar school of music)
S: Brahmin Sabha
SD: Brahmin Sabha... Hi ji kahi thikaan aahet tithe aamhi agadi gaana aikaila jaat asu aani Sangeet Natak baghaila khaas karun Mumbai Marathi Sahitya Sangh nantar
( These are some of the places where we went to listen to music and to watch Sangeet Natak specially Mumbai Marathi Sahitya and...)
S:Parel la Damodar hall Sahahkari Manoranjan Mandal ( In Parel there was Damodar hall, Sahahkari Manoranjan Mandal)
SD: Damodar hall. Te pan naav hine ghetla kaamgar vasthi asun tyani Sangeet Nataka varti prem kela
(Damodar hall. the name she just mentioned it was in the labours colony but they loved Sangeet Natak.)
S: Ajun hi... ( Even today)
SD: Ajun hi kartat sampoorna toh labour area aahe complete Mill area hota aata tar khoop mothe towers jhale aahet pan total mill area Parel area aani tyani kewal Sangeet Nataka saathi tithe Damodar Hall tithe khoop Sangeet Nataka hot asat jasa Shivaji Mandir, Mumbai Marathi Sahitya Sangh Girgaumvatla kiti tari,
( Even today they do the whole area is a labour colony. It was a Mill area now it has huge towers but Parel was totally a mill area and only for Sangeet Natak there was Damodar Hall. A lot of Sangeet Natak's happened there like Shivaji Mandir, Shivaji Mandir, Mumbai Marathi Sahitya Sangh of Girgaum and many others.)
SD: Dinanath Mangeshkaryancha naavacha Vile Parle la theatre bagha Dinanathraoanchach aahe Bal Gandharvancha uttam theatre Poonyala aahe. Te hey je Sangeet Natak jyancha khoop motha contribution aahe Dinanth Mangeshkar, Narayan Rao, Bal Gandharva hyancha saglyancha naavani theatres aahet aani tithe khoop ajun hi madhun madhun Sangeet Natakache prayog hotat aamhi tithe agadi lahaan pana pasun jaat hoto
( Dinanath Mangeshkar has a theatre named after him in Vile Parle. Bal Gandharva has a theatre in Poona. So the one's had a big contribution to Sangeet Natak like Dinanath Mangeshkar, Narayan Rao, Bal Gandharva they all have theatres named after them and even today they have Sangeet Natak performances and we have been going there since our childhood.)
S: Te aani classical jya mehfili aahet na Dadar Matunga Cultural Centre je aahe khoop motha aani juna Mandal aahe. Khoop juna mahnje tyanche karyakram Chabildas High School chya High School madhey hoichce. Tith pasana aamhi aikla aahe aata swatacha tyancha Sabha gruha aahe Dadar Matunga Cultural Centre
( That and the classical performances the one's in Dadar Matunga Cultural Centre it's a big and old mandal (group). It's very old their old programmes used to happen in the Chabildas High School hall. We have heard it since then. I would listen to it there and now they have their own auditorium Dadar Matunga Cultural Centre.)
S: Karnataka Sanghat geli kahi varsha Kala Bharti mahun ji sanstha aahe ti dar ravivar sakali tyanche karyakram classical hotat.
( For the last few years Karnataka Sangha which has the institute Kala Bharti has been doing programs every Sunday morning
SD: Burde, burde sahebana
S: Burde Prakash Burde tyani khoop initiative gheun te kelai kaam tithe kahi mehfili aikaila jaato aani Parlyala Lokmanya Seva Sangha madhye pan classical chi Vile Parle music circle mhanje jasa Dadar Matunga Cultural Centre aahe tasa Vile Parle Music Circle pan juna circle aahe
( Prakash Burde has taken a lot of initiative and done the work we go there for some performances and in Lokmanya Seva Sangh in Parle...Vile Parle Music Circle like there is Dadar Matunga Cultural Centre just like that Vile Parle Music Circle is also a old one.)
SD: Aata music circle suddha kami jhali aahet. Santacruz Music Circle aahe Vile Parle Music circle aahe, Dadar Matunga Cultural Centre aahe music circles suddha comparitively ji purvi agadi khoop hoti gaani kami jhali aata tya manani. Aata conferences madhech jasta karun Shashtriya Sangeet aikaila milta aani kahi chotya private mehfili madhey classical as well as natya sangeet tumhi aiku shakta.
( Now there are not many music cirlces compartively. There is Santacruz Music Circle,
Vile Parle Music Circle, Dadar Matunga Cultural Centre there are few music circles compartively earlier there were many now the songs have become few these days. Nowadays it is only conferences that you can listen to classical music and in some small private mehfils and in music Natya Sangeet.)
SS: Yeh Dadar area mein private mehfil kaafi hoti thi tab? ( Did a lot of private mehfils happen in the Dadar area?)
SD Hoti thi pehele toh bahut hoti thi (Yes they did, earlier there were a lot of them)
S: Dadar area tithe the Brahmin Sabha Mandal je hya ghara pasana agdi jawal ithe pan hoichya mhanje karyakram. Mhanje Ram Marathe yaancha pahila karyakram ithe jhala aahe Brahmin Seva Mandal
( In the Dadar area the Brahmin Sabha Mandal it's very close to this house here also it used to happen programs. I mean Ram Marathe's first performance happened here in Brahmin Seva Mandal.)
TN: Brahmin Sabha woh toh Girgaum mein hai na? ( Brahmin Sabha is in Girgaum right?)
SD: Girgaum
S: Brahmin Sabha vegla te Girgaumvat ( Brahmin Sabha is different.)
Brahmin Seva Mandal aani Brahmin Sahayak Sangha Shivaji Park la don hi thikani gaanyacha mehfili ithe vhaicha Brahmin Seva Mandla madhye aani Dadar Matunga che Chabildas madhye aani Brahmin Sahitya Sangh ya teenhi thikani gaanyacha mehfili hoichya. Pan itha Ram Maratheyancha pahila gaana Bal Gandharva yevu shakle naahit awaaz basla mhanun tya veli Surat la adkun padle aani ithun yeyu shakle nahi aani te pahila karyakram ithe jhala tyancha aivije gaile te Brahmin Seva Mandal. Ithe pushkalach gaani and privately Nirgudkaranchya ghari Hindu colony madhye.
( Brahmin Seva Mandaland Brahmin Sahayak Sangha are at Shivaji Parkbut the music performances happened here at Brahmin Seva Mandal and Dadar Matunga's at Chabildas and Brahmin Sahitya Sangh all these three places music performances happened. But Ram Marathe had his first performance here and Bal Gandharva couldn't come he had a bad throat or he was stuck in Surat and he couldn't come his first programme happened here he sang instead of him Brahmin Seva Mandal. A lot of music happened here and privately at Nirgudkar's place in Hindu colony.)
SD: Hari Mahadeo Vaidya Hall
S: Hari Mahadeo Vaidya Hall ek juna hall ithe ( There's one old hall here Hari Mahadeo Vaidya Hall)
SD: Khoop juna hall aahe chota hall aahe ( It's an old hall it's small)
S: Tithe khoop mehfili mhanje Jaganath Bua ( A lot of performances happened there meaning Jaganath Bua)
TN: Kahan pe hai yeh? ( Where is this?)
SD: Yeh Shivaji Park mein hi hai. He je aahe na Dadar Matunga Cultural chya javal ( This is close to Shivaji Park. Very close to Dadar Matunga Cultural.)
<Cut>
S: Hari Mahadeo Vaidya Hall jo hall jo hall chota aahe pan itkya mehfili, Jaganath Bua vagere tyanchi punyatithi kinva chote chote class chya Guru Purnimeche karyakram khoop hot asat tithe tar tithe gaani aikli aahet tevdha kashala Bombay Galsswork madhye chaali madhye Degvekar mhanun Suresh Degvekar agdi choti jaaga titha Thirakwa Sahebancha tabla aiklela amhi jaaun. Titha gharguti ase loka. Ghari pan he gaila basaiche aani karyakram hoiche.
(Hari Mahadeo Vaidya Hall that hall is small but so many performances Jaganath Bua and all on his death anniversary or the Guru Poornima programs of the small small classes a lot of programs used to happen there so we have heard a lot music there and for that matter even Bombay Glasswork in the chawl there was Degvekar, Suresh Degvekar it was a really tiny place there we heard Thirakwa Saheb's tabla. There were a lot of homely kind of people and they would have perforamances at home too.)
S:Tasa Goregaon madhye Ketkar mhanun tyancha kade dar Holi la karyakram hot ase pratek goshtit Holi la tharlela
( Also in Goregaon there was Ketkar and he would have a program on every Holi. It was fixed for every year on Holi.)
SD: Suresh Talwalkar
S: Sureh Talwalkar te arrange karaiche. Aani tyancha ghari ratra bhar Nivrutti Bua Sadnaik, Ram Bhau Marathe aani Svatha mhanje Suresh Talwalkar asaiche Bhai Gaitonde tablyala hi sagli Mandali kayam tithe C R Vyas hi loka tithe yayche aani saglyancha gaana aikaila milaicha Holi chya ratri, ashya mehfili aamhi khoop aiklya. Aata chya Kalat NCPA aani Nehru Centre la karyakram hotat pan purvi ashe chotya hall madhana aani tya mehfili jasta rangaichya karan audience khoop javal yayacha aani agdi atishay rangaddar mehfili aikaila milalya.
( Suresh Talwalkar would arrange and the programmes went on all night Nivrutti Bua Sadnaik, Ram Bhau Marathe and Suresh Talwalkar himself would be there Bhai Gaitonde would play the tabla and all these people would be there C R Vyas, these people would come there and you could listen to everyone on the night of Holi, we heard a lot of such performances. Nowadays the programmes happen at NCPA and Nehru Centre but earlier they would happen from small halls and those performances would be really nice because the audience was quite close and we heard some really great performances.)
SD: Hari Mahadeo Vaidya Hall evdha chota hall tumhala sangto na. Jaganath Buanchi Guru Poornima aani Jagannath Buanche shishya mahnje kevdhe mothe Ram Marathe, Manek Verma, Jitendra Abhisheki, C R Vyas Balek Ram Prabhu Dev Sardar hi sagli naava tumhala mahiti astil tar tyancha Guru Poornimela surwaat jhali Abhisheki, Ram Marathe te sagle gaoon gele pahate 5 vaajta Ram Marathe gaila nantar achanak Bhimsen aale kuthna tari. Kuthe tari mehfil karun aale hote tar tyana sangitla basa Bhimsen basle gaila. Te kai tyanche shishya navte pan 5 vajta Bhimsen ase gujri Todi gaile ...kya baat hai
( Hari Mahadeo Vaidya Hall was such a small hall, I tell you. Jaganath Bua's Guru Poornima and Jaganath Bua's student were big names Ram Marathe, Manek Verma, Jitendra Abhisheki, C R Vyas Balek Ram Prabhu Dev Sardar you would all these names so they started having Guru Poornima celebrations for them Abhisheki, Ram Marathe everyone sang early morning at 5'o clock after Ram Marathe sang suddenly Bhimsen came from somewhere. He came from some other performance. He wasn't his student but at 5'o clock Bhim sang the Gujri todi so well... Too good.)
TN: Kab tha yeh? ( When was this?)
SD: Jawal jawal aata hi kiti 65 saal chi goshta asel. Ki tya hoon jasta asel aani ashi gaani ji commercial navta aplepana hota. ( This was a round 65' or even before that... but this music was not commercial this was more personal.)
S:He saglech Kalakar mhanje konachi hi Guru Poornima C R Vyasnchya class chi asli tari he gaatil. Vasantraonchya class chi Guru Poornima asli tar hi gaila basnaar mhajne koni tyala kahi arthik vyavhar nasaichach gaila basaicha mhatla ki basle aani gaani suru pan ti gaani jitki Rangatdar aani jevdhi aikaila milali na tashi aata.
( All these singers if it was anyone's Guru Poornima if it was CR Vyas's class even then they would sing. If it was the Guru Poornima of Vasantrao's class even then they would sing, means they didn't have a financial angle to it, if they sat to sing then that's it they would start but the beauty of those songs and the number of songs we heard it's not the same anymore.)
SD: Nahi hot ( Doesn't happen)
S: Nah... manje swaroop badala ( No I mean... the structure changed.)
TN: Aur yeh Ganeh utsav mein bhi Sangeet Natak tha? ( And did Sangeet Natak happen during Ganesh Utsav .)
S: Ganesh Utsavat tar... Ha Sangeet Nataka pan hoichi classical che pan kai 10 diwascha che karyakram aahet tar jawal jawal don teen tari gaanyache karyakram mhanje ek Natya Sangeetacha asel ek fakta bhav geetancha karyakram classical cha karyakram. Plus Sangeet Natak mhajne hyachahi related 5 diwas karyakram astil asa purvi Ganesh Utsavat asaichi. Ekhad diwashi vyakhyan asaicha te tharlela pattern hota Ganesh Utsavcha.
( During Ganesh Utsav... yes Sangeet Natak would also happen even classical shows for 10 days there would be programs and close ato at least 3-4 offer to come sing or one evening they would devotional songs proramme , classical programs. Plus Sangeet Natak means related to this there were programs then one of the days they would have speech this was the fixed plan for Ganesh Utsav.)
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