Mumbai Music: Aneesh Pradhan
Director: Surabhi Sharma; Cinematographer: Ajay Noronha
Duration: 00:55:46; Aspect Ratio: 1.778:1; Hue: 42.129; Saturation: 0.046; Lightness: 0.402; Volume: 0.058; Cuts per Minute: 0.215; Words per Minute: 135.271
Summary: Aneesh Pradhan combines his career as a major tabla player with a career as scholar and writer. Here he discusses his early musical training, his doctoral research into the history of HIndustani music in colonial Bombay, the unique questions he brought to it as a performing musician, and the impact of his in-depth study of the past on his own musical career. Also discussed are issues of pedagogy and technology, and the life of a musician in the age of jet travel.
Making Music
TN: Aneesh, it's really nice to speak to you. As a significant performer as well as someone who writes on music, someone who spent a life in music in Bombay primarily, although you travel so much these days, we would like to know from you, maybe starting from the beginning, about your entry into music. Was it something you didn't have to enter because it was always around you? Or can you actually mark a moment in your life when you entered the world of music? Can you speak about that?
AP: Sure, firstly of course my family was always interested in music, my sisters learnt music in boarding school so both of them learnt violin, one of them learnt sitar later on and my mother had also learnt singing when she was a young girl. She came from the Pathare Prabhu community.
TN: Aneesh, it's really nice to speak to you. As a significant performer as well as someone who writes on music, someone who spent a life in music in Bombay primarily, although you travel so much these days, we would like to know from you, maybe starting from the beginning, about your entry into music. Was it something you didn't have to enter because it was always around you? Or can you actually mark a moment in your life when you entered the world of music? Can you speak about that?
AP: Sure, firstly of course my family was always interested in music, my sisters learnt music in boarding school so both of them learnt violin, one of them learnt sitar later on and my mother had also learnt singing when she was a young girl. She came from the Pathare Prabhu community.
TN: Where did your sisters learn music? You said boarding school
AP: In Pune in St. Mary's school. My mother learnt vocal music and she was an original resident of Girgaum and so the Pathare ummm... Pathare Prabhu community as you know they are one of the oldest communities in the city and her family patronised a lot of music and musicians and she would tell me that at her brother's munja or thread ceremony they had really top notch singers like, I think Hirabai Barodekar, Sundrabai and Menekabai Shirodkar three kinghts you know, so... so I think she grew up in that atmosphere of course she was not encouraged to take it up as a profession or to have a serious pursuit. So...
TN: Where did your sisters learn music? You said boarding school
AP: In Pune in St. Mary's school. My mother learnt vocal music and she was an original resident of Girgaum and so the Pathare ummm... Pathare Prabhu community as you know they are one of the oldest communities in the city and her family patronised a lot of music and musicians and she would tell me that at her brother's munja or thread ceremony they had really top notch singers like, I think Hirabai Barodekar, Sundrabai and Menakabai Shirodkar three nights you know, so... so I think she grew up in that atmosphere of course she was not encouraged to take it up as a profession or to have a serious pursuit. So...
TN: This would have been in the 30's?
AP: Yes, yes early 30's ya so umm... ya but I think that interest motivated her to transfer all that interest to her children and that's how I got interested and at that point I think when I was a kid, the radio was one major... you know source of entertainment and you know engagement and so, it was always on whether you had programmes for workers or folk music programmes or even western classical music lunch time concerts so the radio was constantly on and I grew up listening to diverse kinds of music.
TN: This would have been in the 30's?
AP: Yes, yes early 30's ya so umm... ya but I think that interest motivated her to transfer all that interest to her children and that's how I got interested and at that point I think when I was a kid, the radio was one major... you know source of entertainment and you know engagement and so, it was always on whether you had programmes for workers or folk music programmes or even western classical music lunch time concerts so the radio was constantly on and I grew up listening to diverse kinds of music.
umm... which unfortunately is not the case today particularly with the television and I think I was very fond of singing as a kid and that's when a family friend of ours, you know he advised my parents that, look why don't you get him to learn formally in some music school? And you're staying in Bandra at that point we werein Bandra so just ten minutes from our place was Pandit Nikhil Ghosh's, Arun Sangeetalaya at that time.
umm... which unfortunately is not the case today particularly with the television and I think I was very fond of singing as a kid and that's when a family friend of ours, you know he advised my parents that, look why don't you get him to learn formally in some music school? And you're staying in Bandra, at that point we were in Bandra, so just ten minutes from our place was Pandit Nikhil Ghosh's, Arun Sangeetalaya at that time.
AP: So they said well take him there and so one day we went there and I was 6 at that time and I'm told that my guruji's wife she advised my parents that why don't you start him on tabla he'll get a sense of rhythm and then by and by he can learn vocal music as well but then I was so fascinated by the instrument and I just you know got so attached to it so I remained tabla player and when I was in school itself I remember very vividly, that when I was in 7th standard here there was this kind of essay you had to write main bada hokar kya banoonga? ( What will I be when I grow up) so koi kehta hai ki (someone says) astronaut, toh koi kehta (some other says) nobody says accountant banoonga. So there were two boys in the class. I said I want to be a tabla player, musician and the other boy said he wants to be a chef.
AP: So they said well take him there and so one day we went there and I was 6 at that time and I'm told that my guruji's wife she advised my parents that why don't you start him on tabla he'll get a sense of rhythm and then by and by he can learn vocal music as well but then I was so fascinated by the instrument and I just you know got so attached to it so I remained tabla player and when I was in school itself I remember very vividly, that when I was in 7th standard here there was this kind of essay you had to write main bada hokar kya banoonga? ( What will I be when I grow up) so koi kehta hai ki (someone says) astronaut, toh koi kehta (some other says) nobody says accountant banoonga. So there were two boys in the class. I said I want to be a tabla player, musician and the other boy said he wants to be a chef.
And only the two of us have done what we wanted to do. So... ya so it was at that age that I decided and I didn't know what was post SSC you know. That there was college and you know BA and stuff I didn't know. I knew there was music so of course then I went on to doing my graduation and then my post graduation etc. etc. but tabla and music continued and so, it kind of enveloped me completely because I was at my guruji's house almost everyday of my waking hours you know.
And only the two of us have done what we wanted to do. So... ya so it was at that age that I decided and I didn't know what was post SSC you know. That there was college and you know BA and stuff I didn't know. I knew there was music so of course then I went on to doing my graduation and then my post graduation etc. etc. but tabla and music continued and so, it kind of enveloped me completely because I was at my guruji's house almost everyday of my waking hours you know.
TN: From the age of 6?
AP: Ah yes... from the age of 7 I'd say 7 or 8 because the first 2 years I was going there twice a week for the regular class you know but then he called my parents for a meeting and said that he probably thought that you know I could continue this as a serious pursuit and that I had an aptitude. So he said why don't you send him everyday? And he can accompany my children and he can be in this musical atmosphere so everyday that was the time when I had morning school, so I used come back have my lunch, do my homework everything and 3o'clock on the dot I was at their home and then I would be there till around 6 or 7 whatever and then go back.
TN: From the age of 6?
AP: Ah yes... from the age of 7 I'd say 7 or 8 because the first 2 years I was going there twice a week for the regular class, you know, but then he called my parents for a meeting and said that he probably thought that I could continue this as a serious pursuit and that I had an aptitude. So he said why don't you send him everyday? And he can accompany my children and he can be in this musical atmosphere, so everyday that was the time when I had morning school, so I used come back have my lunch, do my homework everything and 3 o'clock on the dot I was at their home and then I would be there till around 6 or 7 whatever and then go back.
TN: What about the things that normal children do like play, climb trees, throw stones
AP: I would play a bit of cricket and you know but sometimes I would miss it but rarely and you know I'm not exaggerating it really did happen like that
TN: How did that set you apart in school or in college? As someone who as a serious musician? When the rest were still trying to figure out what they want to do in life.
AP: In school it didn't set me apart, apart... aside from that particular instance that I said that essay you know it's like ajooba type of thing you know but other than not really in fact we used to have Ganpati programmes you know competitions so I was very much a singer in school. I would sing.
TN: What about the things that normal children do like play, climb trees, throw stones
AP: I would play a bit of cricket and you know but sometimes I would miss it but rarely and you know I'm not exaggerating it really did happen like that
TN: How did that set you apart in school or in college? As someone who as a serious musician? When the rest were still trying to figure out what they want to do in life.
AP: In school it didn't set me apart, apart... aside from that particular instance that I said that essay you know it's like ajooba type of thing you know but other than not really in fact we used to have Ganpati programmes you know competitions so I was very much a singer in school. I would sing.
Nobody really knew that I played tabla and even you had a free period or something the teacher in the classroom would say okay Aneesh come and sing something you know. So my classmates you know still remember you know I had a couple of and that was the time my first Hindi movie was Haathi Mere Saathi, you know so my favourite song was, Chal chal mere saathi... and the marathi song was Dejhachi Tijori so Sudhir Phadke. So ya I mean singing was more done in school.
Nobody really knew that I played tabla and even you had a free period or something the teacher in the classroom would say okay Aneesh come and sing something you know. So my classmates you know still remember you know I had a couple of and that was the time my first Hindi movie was Haathi Mere Saathi, you know so my favourite song was, Chal chal mere saathi... and the marathi song was Dejhachi Tijori so Sudhir Phadke. So ya I mean singing was more done in school.
TN: So these were more like light music and film songs not so much classical?
AP: Yes
SS: One sec
TN: So these were more like light music and film songs not so much classical?
AP: Yes
SS: One sec
AP: In college... yes people did know my classmates others did know faculty also knew that I was interested in music and seriously pursuing it so for three years or so I was even secretary of the Music and Dance Society, so I would organise little college events and I would play with college students and participate in inter-collegiate festivals, competition etc. etc.
TN: You mentioned singing film songs? Did you also pursue vocal practice as a tabla player?
AP: Yes, I did... I did my guruji was very you know keen that you know students of tabla should not remain just students of tabla but... I mean he always used to say that I want you to be a complete musician. So and by that he meant that I should have a window into the melodic aspect as well, because finally you are going to accompany as a vocalist, instrumentalist, dance so you need to know those facets as well and so I did learn vocal compositions.
AP: In college... yes people did know my classmates others did know faculty also knew that I was interested in music and seriously pursuing it so for three years or so I was even secretary of the Music and Dance Society, so I would organise little college events and I would play with college students and participate in inter-collegiate festivals, competition etc. etc.
TN: You mentioned singing film songs? Did you also pursue vocal practice as a tabla player?
AP: Yes, I did... I did my guruji was very you know keen that you know students of tabla should not remain just students of tabla but... I mean he always used to say that I want you to be a complete musician. So and by that he meant that I should have a window into the melodic aspect as well, because finally you are going to accompany as a vocalist, instrumentalist, dance so you need to know those facets as well and so I did learn vocal compositions.
TN: And who taught you? In...
AP: In the music school itself you got to learn from their syllabus etc. I was not doing that very seriously for couple of years I even learnt the sitar and yes but... I think more of my you know information about that material came when I really went outside and sat in on taalims of other musicians for instance my guruji's daughter Tulika Ghosh she used to learm from Khadim Hussain Khan Saab of the Agra gharana so I would accompany in those taalim sessions at his home. So I got to hear a lot of that material and similarly while accompaning so many musicians across gharana's and across forms of music you got to hear, of course you have to be open and receptive otherwise you can just be a timekeeper. So I decided to be open and absorb as much as possible.
TN: And who taught you? In...
AP: In the music school itself you got to learn from their syllabus etc. I was not doing that very seriously for couple of years. I even learnt the sitar and yes but... I think more of my information about that material came when I really went outside and sat in on taalims of other musicians, for instance my guruji's daughter Tulika Ghosh, she used to learm from Khadim Hussain Khan Saab of the Agra gharana so I would accompany in those taalim sessions at his home. So I got to hear a lot of that material and similarly while accompanying so many musicians across gharanas and across forms of music you got to hear, of course you have to be open and receptive otherwise you can just be a timekeeper. So I decided to be open and absorb as much as possible.
So at one point you know I was playing with bhajan singers. I was playing with ghazal. I was playing with khayal, thumri dadra then instrumentalist, dance all kinds you know. I never stopped myself from anything and in college I even played dholak in street theatre performances you know so ya... and I think all these experiences kind of enrich your musical persona
So at one point you know I was playing with bhajan singers. I was playing with ghazal. I was playing with khayal, thumri dadra then instrumentalist, dance all kinds you know. I never stopped myself from anything and in college I even played dholak in street theatre performances you know so ya... and I think all these experiences kind of enrich your musical persona
TN: Once you have a strong base in classical practice. I suppose diversifying into all these forms is easier?
AP: Not really actually...
TN: No?
AP: Not really because sometimes I feel when your roots are really entrenched sometimes you get a feeling of rigidity and orthodoxy as well. So umm... I think one needs to constantly be aware of the difference between tradition and orthodoxy as a student of music, because otherwise you are so full of yourself you know. Oh I come from this hoary tradition you know and then from this gharana and from this guru and you keep pn narrowing it down as much as possible and it narrows down to yourself you know I am the one you know. So...
TN: Once you have a strong base in classical practice. I suppose diversifying into all these forms is easier?
AP: Not really actually...
TN: No?
AP: Not really because sometimes I feel when your roots are really entrenched sometimes you get a feeling of rigidity and orthodoxy as well. So umm... I think one needs to constantly be aware of the difference between tradition and orthodoxy as a student of music, because otherwise you are so full of yourself you know. Oh I come from this hoary tradition you know and then from this gharana and from this guru and you keep on narrowing it down as much as possible and it narrows down to yourself you know I am the one you know. So...
TN: How do you.. how would you describe the nature of your tabla accompaniment, given the diversity of genres you are familiar with and can accompany? And is there way in which you can show how that is different in each instance?
AP: I think that's for the people I accompany to say but
TN: But from your side what do you need to do to make it suit the...
AP: One is of course, for any musician to be a sensitive musician I think you need to be a good listener and because if you lack that I mean what's the point in me sharing the performance space with let's say a sitar player? When I'm not even going to listen to their alaap? I'm just waiting for my time to come you know when is he going to start the gat and when am I going to launch into this major solo of mine. So umm...
TN: How do you.. how would you describe the nature of your tabla accompaniment, given the diversity of genres you are familiar with and can accompany? And is there way in which you can show how that is different in each instance?
AP: I think that's for the people I accompany to say but
TN: But from your side what do you need to do to make it suit the...
AP: One is of course, for any musician to be a sensitive musician I think you need to be a good listener and because if you lack that I mean what's the point in me sharing the performance space with let's say a sitar player? When I'm not even going to listen to their alaap? I'm just waiting for my time to come you know when is he going to start the gath and when am I going to launch into this major solo of mine. So umm...
so yes I think I developed that aspect very consciously and so and similarly different forms of music for instance you know within the musician circle as well you know people will say oh thumri dadra theek hai you know all, like the dhrupadiya's say you know oh khayal vagera theek hai you know dhrupad is... so all these heirarchies so I was consciously against all heirarchies so whether it was folk music even now on whehter it's my ipod or whatever you know, I carry all kinds of music and not just Indian music but non-Indian music too from across the world. So...
so yes I think I developed that aspect very consciously and so and similarly different forms of music for instance you know within the musician circle as well you know people will say oh thumri dadra theek hai you know all, like the dhrupadiya's say you know oh khayal vagera theek hai you know dhrupad is... so all these heirarchies so I was consciously against all heirarchies so whether it was folk music even now on whehter it's my ipod or whatever you know, I carry all kinds of music and not just Indian music but non-Indian music too from across the world. So...
TN: You said that listerning is a very important part of being a musician it's very well put but you also mentioned the listening in the instance of waiting for a performance to begin like when are you going to come on stage. What about your other exposure as a listener in relation to you know concerts or mehfils of various kinds, the baithaks could you give us a sense of what all you listened when you were growing up and subsequently?
TN: You said that listerning is a very important part of being a musician, it's very well put, but you also mentioned the listening in the instance of waiting for a performance to begin like when are you going to come on stage. What about your other exposure as a listener in relation to you know concerts or mehfils of various kinds, the baithaks could you give us a sense of what all you listened when you were growing up and subsequently?
AP: I grew up virtually listening to music
TN: You said All India Radio was an important factor
AP: All India Radio then everyday I was at my guruji's place... very senior musicians would come and visit so I could you know observe the goings on and whatever exchanges musical exchanges were taking place.
TN: Who were some of them and particular exchange you remember that really made a mark on you?
AP: I mean, I remember seeing Ustad Ahmedjan Thirakwa at his home very short... brief moments twice I... I saw him of course I was not sitting there right there in the room for that long but... but these are moments that you cherish you know. Umm... then there was I remember Ustad Iqbal Ali Khan of Lucknow gharana he was the son of Khurshid Ali Khan so he was 110 at that time so.. so you know all kinds of people were coming very senior musicians and Inam Ali Khan Saab tabla player Delhi gharana he had come there and several, several others you know...
AP: I grew up virtually listening to music
TN: You said All India Radio was an important factor
AP: All India Radio then everyday I was at my guruji's place... very senior musicians would come and visit so I could you know observe the goings on and whatever exchanges, musical exchanges were taking place.
TN: Who were some of them and any particular exchange you remember that really made a mark on you?
AP: I mean, I remember seeing Ustad Ahmedjan Thirakwa at his home very short... brief moments twice I... I saw him of course I was not sitting there right there in the room for that long but... but these are moments that you cherish you know. Umm... then there was I remember Ustad Iqbal Ali Khan of Lucknow gharana he was the son of Khurshid Ali Khan so he was 110 at that time so.. so you know all kinds of people were coming, very senior musicians, and Inam Ali Khan Saab, tabla player Delhi gharana, he had come there, and several, several others you know...
and apart from that when I was growing up as a musician as a performer I made conscious decision that in my free time I would go and listen to as many concerts as possible and so if I was not performing I was listening and I was listening and I was listening I would go to the NCPA library either listen to their archival stuff or I would listen to the LP's there I was... I became a member there I was also refering to their books and so all these were conscious decisions you know it was not just kind of one fine day I just decide let's just go out there and that's the way I tell my students also to engage themselves with music.
and apart from that when I was growing up as a musician as a performer I made conscious decision that in my free time I would go and listen to as many concerts as possible and so if I was not performing I was listening and I was listening and I was listening I would go to the NCPA library either listen to their archival stuff or I would listen to the LP's there I was... I became a member there I was also refering to their books and so all these were conscious decisions you know it was not just kind of one fine day I just decide let's just go out there and that's the way I tell my students also to engage themselves with music.
AP: See because not all students necessarily become performers and not all of them become good performers but they can certainly enrich themselves musically by virtue of the fact that they are constantly engaged in some kind of association with music so some of them I tell them keep a notebook you know and make notes, what concert have you heard? What raaga? What taal? you know and I make a conscious effort of asking them because that's what my guru did with me too.
AP: See because not all students necessarily become performers and not all of them become good performers but they can certainly enrich themselves musically by virtue of the fact that they are constantly engaged in some kind of association with music so some of them I tell them keep a notebook you know and make notes, what concert have you heard? What raaga? What taal? you know and I make a conscious effort of asking them because that's what my guru did with me too.
So he would say, What concert did you go to? Then I would say so and so who was the artist ok so and so. What time did it start? And who was there in the audience, and what did they perform? and you know also I had to be really observant you know and so I think my students also try to do that and some of them do take notes even when they go to the NCPA library.
So he would say, What concert did you go to? Then I would say so and so who was the artist ok so and so. What time did it start? And who was there in the audience, and what did they perform? and you know also I had to be really observant you know and so I think my students also try to do that and some of them do take notes even when they go to the NCPA library.
TN: So what were some of the most memorable concerts that you heard? As a part of that self-training
AP: Oh gosh! that's a difficult one I mean.
TN: Okay... Top 3
AP: I will tell you the earliest one's okay? I remember hearing Thirakwa Khan Saab's tabla solos, three tabla solos which my guruji had organised as part of the annual function of Sangeet Mahabharti so I remember that and I also remember the fact that musicians and young people even at that point you know when there was not so much of celebrity kind of status attached to musicians. I don't know 20-30 people surrounding him somebody wanting to hold his hammer. somebody wanting to hold his baya and tabla and sitting on stage with him. They just wanted to be part of that moment and it was fascinating for me.
TN: So what were some of the most memorable concerts that you heard? As a part of that self-training
AP: Oh gosh! that's a difficult one I mean.
TN: Okay... Top 3
AP: I will tell you the earliest one's okay? I remember hearing Thirakwa Khan Saab's tabla solos, three tabla solos which my guruji had organised as part of the annual function of Sangeet Mahabharti so I remember that and I also remember the fact that musicians and young people even at that point you know when there was not so much of celebrity kind of status attached to musicians. I don't know 20-30 people surrounding him somebody wanting to hold his hammer. somebody wanting to hold his baya and tabla and sitting on stage with him. They just wanted to be part of that moment and it was fascinating for me.
TN: And how old was he at the time do you know?
AP: I'm told he was 98 or probably 100 I don't know so ya... so that was really great.
The first vocalist that I heard was Ustad Latafat Hussain Khan Saab, Agra gharana in Birla Matoshree and then I remember the first Laxmi Baug concert even at that time it was still on few concerts so I think it was Ustad Amir Hussain Khan Saab's barsi ( death anniversary) and I think Vibhav Nageshkar played tabla solo and followed by Allarakha Khan Saab and Zakirji duet and I remember sitting on the balcony and looking...you know watching it through the bars there you know because I was really small at that time so... so ya these are some moments that I remember from the early listening by and by of course I was listening to vocalist, instrumentalist across... across the board very senior musicians very junior musicians, very well known and not so well known all kinds... all kinds. I would also go for Western classical music concerts or jazz. I used to go to Jazz Yatra
TN: And how old was he at the time do you know?
AP: I'm told he was 98 or probably 100 I don't know so ya... so that was really great.
The first vocalist that I heard was Ustad Latafat Hussain Khan Saab, Agra gharana in Birla Matoshree and then I remember the first Laxmi Baug concert even at that time it was still on few concerts so I think it was Ustad Amir Hussain Khan Saab's barsi ( death anniversary) and I think Vibhav Nageshkar played tabla solo and followed by Allarakha Khan Saab and Zakirji duet and I remember sitting on the balcony and looking...you know watching it through the bars there you know because I was really small at that time so... so ya these are some moments that I remember from the early listening by and by of course I was listening to vocalist, instrumentalist across... across the board very senior musicians very junior musicians, very well known and not so well known all kinds... all kinds. I would also go for Western classical music concerts or jazz. I used to go to Jazz Yatra
TN: I know your new book is just about to come out your someone who is known as reflective thinker of music and not primarily only a performer but how do you try to you know blend these different aspects of your engagement with music
AP: Ya sometimes it's a little schizophrenic for me but no really speaking I think that inquiry has... has led to me enriching myself as a performer you know I have found myself in this city in a kind of a global economy where consumerism is the catch phrase you know and how do I locate... situate myself in this kind of atmosphere what am I to do as a performer as a student, as teacher when I'm faced with challenges from technology, from consumerism from the market economy and all kinds of things and the obious thing that came to my mind was look back 100 years, 125 years and see what musicians did you know and they had to face even greater challenges you know. I mean the very living and working conditions were so different for them from the feudal patronage that they were receiving before they came the city.
TN: I know your new book is just about to come out your someone who is known as reflective thinker of music and not primarily only a performer but how do you try to you know blend these different aspects of your engagement with music
AP: Ya sometimes it's a little schizophrenic for me but no really speaking I think that inquiry has... has led to me enriching myself as a performer you know I have found myself in this city in a kind of a global economy where consumerism is the catch phrase you know and how do I locate... situate myself in this kind of atmosphere what am I to do as a performer as a student, as teacher when I'm faced with challenges from technology, from consumerism from the market economy and all kinds of things and the obious thing that came to my mind was look back 100 years, 125 years and see what musicians did you know and they had to face even greater challenges you know. I mean the very living and working conditions were so different for them from the feudal patronage that they were receiving before they came the city.
I mean here I'm born in the city . I'm very much a city person.I'm growing up with technology so it's not something that is completely away from my real self but for them it was, everything was new and how did they manage? So that's why I decided to look at the city. I mean of course I did history of Bombay as one of the papers for my Masters you know but I thought this was a good way of linking the two, of looking at Hindustani music and practitioners of Hindustani music in the city. What did they do in the late 19th century and early 20th century? Particularly in a colonial situation where there's no State patronage as well.
I mean here I'm born in the city . I'm very much a city person.I'm growing up with technology so it's not something that is completely away from my real self but for them it was, everything was new and how did they manage? So that's why I decided to look at the city. I mean of course I did history of Bombay as one of the papers for my Masters you know but I thought this was a good way of linking the two, of looking at Hindustani music and practitioners of Hindustani music in the city. What did they do in the late 19th century and early 20th century? Particularly in a colonial situation where there's no State patronage as well.
AP: Ya that's how I started on that... that project
TN: And the book sort of concludes before Independence? Or what's the period like?
AP: Primarily yes, 1947 but I... in the epilogue I have looked at a few events that kind of took place in the 50's as well and 60's but not post that, because things change a lot post 70's... but yes until the 60's I have looked at it
AP: Ya that's how I started on that... that project
TN: And the book sort of concludes before Independence? Or what's the period like?
AP: Primarily yes, 1947 but I... in the epilogue I have looked at a few events that kind of took place in the 50's as well and 60's but not post that, because things change a lot post 70's... but yes until the 60's I have looked at it
TN: I know that you have been a formal student of history but your engagement with music is far longer than the engagement with history as a discipline. How do you think the history that you wrote or you have written is different because you are a performing musician? What kinds of questions would you pick up or what mehthodologies might you follow that set you apart and your not simply on more historian writing a book about colonial Bombay?
AP: Right...
TN: I know that you have been a formal student of history but your engagement with music is far longer than the engagement with history as a discipline. How do you think the history that you wrote or you have written is different because you are a performing musician? What kinds of questions would you pick up or what mehthodologies might you follow that set you apart and your not simply on more historian writing a book about colonial Bombay?
AP: Right...
I'm hoping that I'm not one more historian
TN:No, no you're not so just wondering what would be the difference like?
AP: No, no I'm saying that the reader will have to decide whether I have done something slightly different but from my point of view I was always taken up by let's say what Dr. Ranade would say, that performes should articulate, should write and not just criticise then others are writing and they have made a hotch potch of things you know... why don't you do it you know. So, and of course I have always been bothered about things of form and style and you know the manner of articulating things but he would consciously... constantly tell me don't bother about that just get it out there, then let people judge and by and by you wil also grow ad he said that he had done that so...
I'm hoping that I'm not one more historian
TN:No, no you're not so just wondering what would be the difference like?
AP: No, no I'm saying that the reader will have to decide whether I have done something slightly different. But from my point of view I was always taken up by let's say what Dr. Ranade would say, that performers should articulate, should write and not just criticise when others are writing and they have made a hodge podge of things you know... why don't you do it you know. So, and of course I have always been bothered about things of form and style and you know the manner of articulating things but he would consciously... constantly tell me don't bother about that just get it out there, then let people judge and by and by you will also grow and he said that he had done that so...
So I decided to go along that path
TN: You mean in writing about music not only to think about form and style that's what his advice was?
AP: Yes, I mean I was see I have never thought of myself as a good writer you know and it's not something that would come naturally to me as much as say performing or they study of music so... so I was really worried about that and I was not so worried about the methodology part because I wa trained very well intensely... intensively by professor J.V. Naik so... who was my guide for Phd so the research methodology part was taken care of you know but the skills for arguing a case was something that I don't know whether I have been able to do that but coming back to your original question about this book.
So I decided to go along that path
TN: You mean in writing about music not only to think about form and style that's what his advice was?
AP: Yes, I mean I was see I have never thought of myself as a good writer you know and it's not something that would come naturally to me as much as say performing or they study of music so... so I was really worried about that and I was not so worried about the methodology part because I was trained very well intensely... intensively by Professor J.B Naik so... who was my guide for PhD, so the research methodology part was taken care of you know but the skills for arguing a case was something that I don't know whether I have been able to do that, but coming back to your original question about this book.
What I have tried to do is raise questions from the performer's perspective umm... so I believe that you are aware that in the recent past let's say a decade or so there's been a lot of research post 95' or so, in music that tookplace Hindustani music that took place in the colonial situation and what were the decisive factors for moulding the pedagogy of the time and how it has impacted pedagogy today umm... people have not I believe, researchers have not really looked at performance practice in equal measure and I believe that both go hand in hand because...
What I have tried to do is raise questions from the performer's perspective umm... so I believe that you are aware that in the recent past let's say a decade or so there's been a lot of research post 95' or so, in music that tookplace Hindustani music that took place in the colonial situation and what were the decisive factors for moulding the pedagogy of the time and how it has impacted pedagogy today umm... people have not I believe, researchers have not really looked at performance practice in equal measure and I believe that both go hand in hand because...
TN: It's more difficult to track because pedagogoic practice you have all the books and curriculum right?
AP: Yea...Exactly and also I think when they look at pedagogy the have primarily looked at institutions and textual sources and that seems ironical for... the fact you are looking at an aural tradition primarily an aural tradition and you are basing all your arguments primarily on textual sources and on institutions and not the original practitioners and you know all the talk about sanitising and classcising the tradition all these things, yes there's some logic to it but at the same time you need to see what was the performer's role in this whole situation I mean... researcher's often feel that you know it's almost like performers were living in this vacumn and then they could be herded anywhere you know like some mute spectators. I mean in their silence itself they were speaking.
TN: It's more difficult to track because pedagogoic practice you have all the books and curriculum right?
AP: Yea...Exactly and also I think when they look at pedagogy the have primarily looked at institutions and textual sources and that seems ironical for... the fact you are looking at an aural tradition primarily an aural tradition and you are basing all your arguments primarily on textual sources and on institutions and not the original practitioners and you know all the talk about sanitising and classcising the tradition all these things, yes there's some logic to it but at the same time you need to see what was the performer's role in this whole situation I mean... researcher's often feel that you know it's almost like performers were living in this vacumn and then they could be herded anywhere you know like some mute spectators. I mean in their silence itself they were speaking.
TN: But all the more reason then to try and understand as a historian how would you track material that is no longer embodied in living persons
AP: Yes
TN: And I think as a practising musician I suspect you would have looked at embodied traditions
AP: Yes, yes
TN: or how ways of performing music have been carried forward so what was the challenge? Conventional historian would say it can't be done because unless it's there written down or you can track it or there's oral history but you are even looking at a period when oral history is not possible so what was the challenge?
AP: Absolutely... so first of all oral history I did interview people who were in their 80's and 90's so... I was looking at a span of 80 years at least. Many of them are no more so that was....
TN: But all the more reason then to try and understand as a historian how would you track material that is no longer embodied in living persons
AP: Yes
TN: And I think as a practising musician I suspect you would have looked at embodied traditions
AP: Yes, yes
TN: or how ways of performing music have been carried forward so what was the challenge? Conventional historian would say it can't be done because unless it's there written down or you can track it or there's oral history but you are even looking at a period when oral history is not possible so what was the challenge?
AP: Absolutely... so first of all oral history I did interview people who were in their 80's and 90's so... I was looking at a span of 80 years at least. Many of them are no more so that was....
SS: Sorry we'll just let this vehicle pass this horrible music is not a nice background
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SS: Sorry we'll just let this vehicle pass this horrible music is not a nice background
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AP: We were looking at textual sources na?
TN: No, you were saying I think that we were trying to figure out how you as a performer the different kind of insight into how musical practice gets strengthened and perpetuated will not neccesarily look at textual sources to map change but in your project it will be difficult to try and figure out how we can track historical sources but historical often tends to mean textual
AP: Yeah... right
TN: So in tracking a performative practice how do you do history? And you mentioned some oral historical sources something more on those lines
AP:Yes
AP: We were looking at textual sources na?
TN: No, you were saying I think that we were trying to figure out how you as a performer the different kind of insight into how musical practice gets strengthened and perpetuated will not neccesarily look at textual sources to map change but in your project it will be difficult to try and figure out how we can track historical sources but historical often tends to mean textual
AP: Yeah... right
TN: So in tracking a performative practice how do you do history? And you mentioned some oral historical sources something more on those lines
AP:Yes
AP: One was as I said oral history but the other thing is that what textual sources to look at? and how to read them is also important. For instance, during my study I looked very closely at the Parsi Gayan Uttejak Mandali. Now the one textual source that most people look at is the report of the mandali which was published in 1946 but while reading the report I saw that the mandali had published a compendium of 1100 compositions way back in 1887 and this was a compendium of 1100 pieces that had been performed in the mandali jalsas which were almost weekly jalsas between 1870 and 1871 and 1886 so I decided to dig up that source and looked at it very closely.
AP: One was as I said oral history but the other thing is that what textual sources to look at? and how to read them is also important. For instance, during my study I looked very closely at the Parsi Gayan Uttejak Mandali. Now the one textual source that most people look at is the report of the mandali which was published in 1946 but while reading the report I saw that the mandali had published a compendium of 1100 compositions way back in 1887 and this was a compendium of 1100 pieces that had been performed in the mandali jalsas which were almost weekly jalsas between 1870 and 1871 and 1886 so I decided to dig up that source and looked at it very closely.
TN: Must have been very hard to find
AP: It was very difficult. It was in Gujarati and I think there are lot of problem areas there in terms of printing and you know some words are incorrectly mentioned there when you look at other sources with similar compositions even so, you know the diversity of compositions there. You have dhrupad, khayal, tarana , tappa what they call tillana then you have something called what we call Swarmalika now they have that. Then they have laavni's, they have padh's, so folk repertoire is also there. And until then we knew that the mandali had classical musicians as teachers, so where were they learning - these Parsi amateur singers who were the members of that community - where were they learning this material from? Naturally from those teachers, hanh.
TN: Must have been very hard to find
AP: It was very difficult. It was in Gujarati and I think there are lot of problem areas there in terms of printing and you know some words are incorrectly mentioned there when you look at other sources with similar compositions even so, you know the diversity of compositions there. You have dhrupad, khayal, tarana , tappa what they call tillana then you have something called what we call Swarmalika now, they have that. Then they have laavnis, they have pad-s, so folk repertoire is also there, and until then we knew that the mandali had classical musicians as teachers, so where they learning - these Parsi amateur singers who were the members of that community, where were they learning this material from? Naturally from those teachers, hanh.
AP: The other thing was that we say that this whole project of sanitising repertoire and dissociating from women performers etc. etc. but you look at the compostitons and yes (Kaikhushro) Kabraji who was the founder of the mandali had said that we must have Parsi women learn more than garba songs. They should learn raagadhari music and taan's etc. so that our men folk don't go to prostitutes, hanh, okay, so this is a different story to tell but at the same time you look at the kind of material that was being taught there were absolutely erotic laavni's being taught, and including classical compositions as well.
AP: The other thing was that we say that this whole project of sanitising repertoire and dissociating from women performers etc. etc. but you look at the compostitons and yes (Kaikhushro) Kabraji who was the founder of the mandali had said that we must have Parsi women learn more than garba songs. They should learn raagadhari music and taan's etc. so that our men folk don't go to prostitutes, hanh, okay, so this is a different story to tell but at the same time you look at the kind of material that was being taught, there were absolutely erotic laavni's being taught and including classical compositions as well.
AP: So here's a textual source if you want it'll just be a compendium of compositions ha which was published in 1887 but if you want to go beyond that you will realise that there is much more to it than just a collection of compositions and that every jalsa ended with God Save the Queen ha that the jalsas had english readings they had english songs as well ha. That each jalsa had between 9 and 36 compositions so you can tell from that although these people were amateur singers what were the motives in having such a wide variety of compositions in a single performance.
AP: So here's a textual source if you want it'll just be a compendium of compositions ha which was published in 1887 but if you want to go beyond that you will realise that there is much more to it than just a collection of compositions and that every jalsa ended with God Save the Queen ha that the jalsas had english readings they had english songs as well ha. That each jalsa had between 9 and 36 compositions so you can tell from that although these people were amateur singers what were the motives in having such a wide variety of compositions in a single performance.
Was it to attract a cross section of listeners, was it because they were not capable of elaborating on each composition and in that context did the Mandali and its teachers who were professional musicians, did they make a compromise about what was thought as a pillar of Hindustani music which is elaboration and improvisation so did they make a compromise there? And if they were making a compromise then the practitioners were very much part of that decision, you know, of course they were employed there as teachers, but then they made a choice they could have very well said I'm going to chuck up this job, I'm not going to do it, it's against my tradition and everything but obviously they didn't, so I'm saying that even if there are textual sources it's necessary and ideally if a historian and a performer were to come together and do this kind of work it would be fascinating. So...
Was it to attract a cross section of listerners, was it because they were not capable of elaborating on each composition and in that context did the mandali and it's teachers who were professional musicians did they make a compromise about what was thought as a pillar of Hindustani music which is elaboration and improvisation so did they make a compromise there? And if they were making a compromise then the practitioners were very much part of that decision you know of course they were employed there as teachers, but then they made a choice they could have very well said I'm going to chuck up this job, I'm not going to do it, it's against my tradition and everything but obviously they didn't, so I'm saying that even if there are textual sources it's necessary and ideally if a historian and a performer were to come together and do this kind of work it would be fascinating. So...
TN: Were they in many languages? These 1100 compositions?
AP: Yes, there were laavni's even bi-lingual laavni's Marathi, Hindi yes...
TN: And Gujarati?
AP: and I'll tell you they had special events Dadabhai Nowroji for 5 years was president of the mandali but at the same time, that was a time when colonial rule was thought of as a divine dispensation and so they had events you know felicitate Lord Rippon. Satya name ki Hori rachayi dhyana laaye Rippon chaturayi . That is a hori written by kavi (poet) Firoz Batliwala who was a member there. So now here you have all these compositions and I mean they can just remain there in the history books but otherwise they just come alive you know to a performer it comes alive such a rich diversity there you know.
TN: Were they in many languages? These 1100 compositions?
AP: Yes, there were laavni's even bi-lingual laavni's Marathi, Hindi yes...
TN: And Gujarati?
AP: and I'll tell you they had special events Dadabhai Nowroji for 5 years was president of the mandali but at the same time, that was a time when colonial rule was thought of as a divine dispensation and so they had events you know felicitate Lord Rippon. Satya name ki Hori rachayi dhyana laaye Rippon chaturayi . That is a hori written by kavi (poet) Firoz Batliwala who was a member there. So now here you have all these compositions and I mean they can just remain there in the history books but otherwise they just come alive you know to a performer it comes alive such a rich diversity there you know.
TN: If I remember correctly you and Shuba Mudgal have done a performance using some of these compositions?
AP: Ya that was an idea that I had toyed with and so the first jalsa of the mandali we re-created that...
TN: Is it?
AP: Ha...Some of the compositions
TN: Was it a stage performance?
TN: If I remember correctly you and Shuba Mudgal have done a performance using some of these compositions?
AP: Ya that was an idea that I had toyed with and so the first jalsa of the mandali we re-created that...
TN: Is it?
AP: Ha...Some of the compositions
TN: Was it a stage performance?
AP: It was a stage performance
SS: In Pune? Sunil?
AP: Sorry... in Pune at Baaja Gaaja no no Sunil ke saath toh woh ( with Sunil it was) Stories in a Song
SS: But even at Baaja Gaaja you had done soemthing?
AP: Baaja Gaaja this was this was April 28th,1871 that was their first jalsa public jalsa so we recreated some of those pieces and you know it's fascinating many now today we think of thematic performances ha everybody thinks this the recent phenomenon they had already thought about it. So in one jalsa they used to have many Malhars many Kanada's that means they had already worked on those lines of catalouging or categorising their information in this manner and putting it into performance practice.
AP: It was a stage performance
SS: In Pune? Sunil?
AP: Sorry... in Pune at Baaja Gaaja no no Sunil ke saath toh woh ( with Sunil it was) Stories in a Song
SS: But even at Baaja Gaaja you had done soemthing?
AP: Baaja Gaaja this was this was April 28th,1871 that was their first jalsa public jalsa so we recreated some of those pieces and you know it's fascinating many now today we think of thematic performances ha everybody thinks this the recent phenomenon they had already thought about it. So in one jalsa they used to have many Malhars many Kanada's that means they had already worked on those lines of catalouging or categorising their information in this manner and putting it into performance practice.
TN: So would you give credit to the mandali office bearers and students or would you say the very senior practitioners who were teaching there who came up these ideas of both the thematic as well as the organisation of a jalsa?
AP: Now this we don't know who came up with the decision..
TN: No I'm just saying did you track any discussions or debates or
AP: No, there's nothing available
TN: Okay. So your interpretive strategies have to really you know come into play.
AP: So I'm saying that it possibly was a joint decision in any case the fact that the teachers did not leave the mandali and in fact more joined as the years went by. It means that they were consciously aware that these decisions were taking shape there and you know that Bhatkhande was allowed to lecture there. Bhatkhande learnt a lot of compositions, hundreds of compositions from the mandali teachers and then his notation was later on put into practice right there. So...
TN: So would you give credit to the mandali office bearers and students or would you say the very senior practitioners who were teaching there who came up these ideas of both the thematic as well as the organisation of a jalsa?
AP: Now this we don't know who came up with the decision..
TN: No I'm just saying did you track any discussions or debates or
AP: No, there's nothing available
TN: Okay. So your interpretive strategies have to really you know come into play.
AP: So I'm saying that it possibly was a joint decision, in any case the fact that the teachers did not leave the Mandali and in fact more joined as the years went by. It means that they were consciously aware that these decisions were taking shape there, and you know that Bhatkhande was allowed to lecture there. Bhatkhande learnt a lot of compositions, hundreds of compositions from the Mandali teachers and then his notation was later on put into practice right there. So...
AP: and Nazir Khan Bhendibazarwale was also there in the mandali and he was a close associate of Bhatkhande so obviously there was a lot of exchanging there so I think practitioners were well aware of what was happening whether they chose to remain silent and go with the flow I don't know but in that also was a conscious decision. It wasn't something that they were unaware of.
AP: and Nazir Khan Bhendibazarwale was also there in the mandali and he was a close associate of Bhatkhande so obviously there was a lot of exchanging there so I think practitioners were well aware of what was happening whether they chose to remain silent and go with the flow I don't know but in that also was a conscious decision. It wasn't something that they were unaware of.
TN: So has something changed in your practice as a result of the historical research or it can't be tracked so easily? You sense there's some change in the way that you perform?
AP: I... I can't really say for sure, definitely the spirit of enquiry, the curiosity was always there but not at this heightened stage and I would say now I'm very... more keen about these things so even if it performance practice or it is repertoire you know I want to look back and see what kind of sources I can find.
TN: So has something changed in your practice as a result of the historical research or it can't be tracked so easily? You sense there's some change in the way that you perform?
AP: I... I can't really say for sure, definitely the spirit of enquiry, the curiosity was always there but not at this heightened stage and I would say now I'm very... more keen about these things so even if it performance practice or it is repertoire you know I want to look back and see what kind of sources I can find.
Similarly, if its biographical information about musicians so I want to go more in detail rather than just the face value birthdate, death you know that kind of stuff or achievements. Similarly when I am teaching, I try to incorporate those elements in my teaching.
Similarly, if its biographical information about musicians so I want to go more in detail rather than just the face value birthdate, death you know that kind of stuff or achievements. Similarly when I am teaching, I try to incorporate those elements in my teaching.
TN: Do you see any sort of difference, do you see any difference in the choices you make as a performer, the choices you make as a teacher? Do you teach a number of students?
AP: Yes, I'd say I'm teaching around 20-25 students but...
TN: They are all over India?
AP: They are across the country and also from overseas I don't teach in a classroom situation. I feel I'm not really geared to doing that. I get easily bored with a classroom situation
TN: Do you see any sort of difference, do you see any difference in the choices you make as a performer, the choices you make as a teacher? Do you teach a number of students?
AP: Yes, I'd say I'm teaching around 20-25 students but...
TN: They are all over India?
AP: They are across the country and also from overseas I don't teach in a classroom situation. I feel I'm not really geared to doing that. I get easily bored with a classroom situation
TN: They are like more than one student
AP: More than one student they come sometime 2 or 3 but you know 20 people if it's a master class just a one off thing or a workshop. I love doing that. But on a regular basis to teach 20 people you know is a little overwhelming for me. Apart from the fact that I don't have the space at my home to do that. So ya, I teach primarily on an individual basis I have also tried teaching on skype, exchanging files on the net using dropbox and email all manner of technology.
TN: They are like more than one student
AP: More than one student they come sometime 2 or 3 but you know 20 people if it's a master class just a one off thing or a workshop. I love doing that. But on a regular basis to teach 20 people you know is a little overwhelming for me. Apart from the fact that I don't have the space at my home to do that. So ya, I teach primarily on an individual basis I have also tried teaching on skype, exchanging files on the net using dropbox and email all manner of technology.
TN: Do you want to comment on that aspect of the teaching?
AP: Yes
TN: Does it work? Does it...
AP: In fact I told my the one student who has been very consistent with this he's from Australia I mean he's an Indian but based in Australia and I told him that why don't you write about this and so there's pdf document somewhere on his website which kind of takes us through the process from the very early days to that particular juncture where he was writing that and I had to consciously now here's where you were asking me whether my study into history has helped me?
TN: Do you want to comment on that aspect of the teaching?
AP: Yes
TN: Does it work? Does it...
AP: In fact I told my the one student who has been very consistent with this he's from Australia I mean he's an Indian but based in Australia and I told him that why don't you write about this and so there's pdf document somewhere on his website which kind of takes us through the process from the very early days to that particular juncture where he was writing that and I had to consciously now here's where you were asking me whether my study into history has helped me?
Yes, definitely when musicians came to the city and either were engaged in institutions like the Mandali or got teaching...that the whole tuition ethos came about which was not so under feudal patronage, so teaching became a commercial transaction on an hourly basis, so how did they negotiate those times? How were they negotiating times when music schools like Gandharva Mahavidyalaya or Deodhar School had fixed syllabus, fixed times of teaching, notation system which was not necessarily universally followed but yet there was notation system and the students who went there looked forward to these ingredients in pedagogy.
Yes, definitely when musicians came to the city and either were engaged in institutions like the mandali or got teaching...that the whole tution ethos came about which was not so under feudal patronage and where teaching became a commercial transaction on an hourly basis so how did they negotiate those times? How were they negotiating times when music schools like Gandharva Mahavidyalaya or Deodhar School had fixed syllabus, fixed times of teaching notation system which was not necessarily universally followed but yet there was notation system and the students who went there looked forward to these ingredients in pedagogy.
AP: How were practitioners hereditary performers looking at their own teaching process when they wanted more students so I think that helped me renegotiate my own space. So for instance when I was teaching on skype it was very different to teaching in a live situation. First of all there's at least a 3 second delay so we can't play together okay. Ordinarliy, when you are in a live situation the teacher very often.. for instance my own learning experience when I was learning from my guru there used to be taalim sessions where very few words were exchanged he started I had to follow, anticipate ha and that it was it at the end of the thing and my taalim sessions would normally take place post 10:30 or 11 at night after he finished his own work so at that point then he would say ok now just write it down at home and if you have any problems just ask me the next day.
AP: How were practitioners hereditary performers looking at their own teaching process when they wanted more students so I think that helped me renegotiate my own space. So for instance when I was teaching on skype it was very different to teaching in a live situation. First of all there's at least a 3 second delay so we can't play together okay. Ordinarliy, when you are in a live situation the teacher very often.. for instance my own learning experience when I was learning from my guru there used to be taalim sessions where very few words were exchanged he started I had to follow, anticipate ha and that it was it at the end of the thing and my taalim sessions would normally take place post 10:30 or 11 at night after he finished his own work so at that point then he would say ok now just write it down at home and if you have any problems just ask me the next day.
So I had to really you know capture as much as possible in that moment but we could play together. I could play along with him in a skype situation you can't do that you have to wait for the person to finish and only then so, it changes the very sound of music that you are hearing you are not hearing your teacher's instrument or medium along with yours
So I had to really you know capture as much as possible in that moment but we could play together. I could play along with him. In a skype situation you can't do that, you have to wait for the person to finish and only then so, it changes the very sound of music that you are hearing you are not hearing your teacher's instrument or medium along with yours.
TN: So a certain temporality comes in that sound
AP: Ya... ya ya so that is one, one aspect so the technology. The second thing is supposing I have uploaded a file okay, let's say some composition now I have to factor in what are the possible faults that he will meet with when playing that okay because he's not meeting me on an everyday...daily basis. Maybe once a week or something we'll exchange notes, so I would articulate in an email each and every thing and I made a conscious effort of doing that because I felt that let me see challenge myself and see how much I can articulate the... the faults that somebody may encounter and even if you encounter the fault how are you going to you know correct yourself?
TN: So a certain temporality comes in that sound
AP: Ya... ya ya so that is one, one aspect so the technology. The second thing is supposing I have uploaded a file okay, let's say some composition. Now I have to factor in what are the possible faults that he will meet with when playing that, okay, because he's not meeting me on an everyday...daily basis. Maybe once a week or something we'll exchange notes, so I would articulate in an email each and every thing, and I made a conscious effort of doing that because I felt that let me see, challenge myself and see how much I can articulate the... the faults that somebody may encounter and even if you encounter the fault how are you going to, you know, correct yourself?
So we've exchanged many emails sometimes he would say that, no Aneeshji I cannot understand this or he would say, Okay I've got it you know.
TN: Slightly different question but it's related especially because you spoke about the emails detailing what you are anticipating very often lot of the more conventional taalim which is face to face depends on a level of informality which most Indians don't capture in english, so does the language in which you are instructing have any impact or effect on the pedagogy itself?
So we've exchanged many emails sometimes he would say that, no Aneeshji I cannot understand this or he would say, Okay I've got it you know.
TN: Slightly different question but it's related, especially because you spoke about the emails detailing what you are anticipating. Very often a lot of the more conventional taalim which is face to face depends on a level of informality which most Indians don't capture in English, so does the language in which you are instructing have any impact on effect on the pedagogy itself?
AP: Well, yes and no because now you are in an urban kind of space where people
TN: They all are familiar with english
AP: familiar at least a smattering of all different languages you know and I sometimes you know if there's somebody from Gujarat I speak in Gujarati because I like to try my hand different languages so I do that and I don't think language is such a major hurdle cultural differences yes, they maybe a hurdle like for instance if you have somebody from overseas you know who is not living here but that is possible even in the city itself. There are people who don't about Indian culture even here and what is Indian culture finally? you know It's not some monolith so I think we all learn to negotiate these.
AP: Well, yes and no because now you are in an urban kind of space where people
TN: They all are familiar with english
AP: familiar at least a smattering of all different languages you know and I sometimes you know if there's somebody from Gujarat I speak in Gujarati because I like to try my hand at different languages, so I do that, and I don't think language is such a major hurdle. Cultural differences yes, they may be a hurdle, like for instance if you have somebody from overseas who is not living here, but that is possible even in the city itself. There are people who don't about Indian culture even here, and what is Indian culture finally? you know It's not some monolith so I think we all learn to negotiate these.
TN: Do you see any difference in the present generation of students as oppose to your generation this is not a decline of Hindustani sangeet that question. It's not that question
AP: Yeah I know
TN: But simply technology is an important factor. Do you see any other changes in the nature of the taalim or the way people do riyaaz or the way they engage with music?
TN: Do you see any difference in the present generation of students as oppose to your generation this is not a decline of Hindustani sangeet that question. It's not that question
AP: Yeah I know
TN: But simply technology is an important factor. Do you see any other changes in the nature of the taalim or the way people do riyaaz or the way they engage with music?
AP: Yes, definitely one thing is that although they have the technology at hand and the avenues of sourcing material it is not always that they are listening to a multitude of recordings or forms of music you know. They may be very narrow, narrow minded in their approach to listening so it is for the teacher to tell them how to harness these tools of listening and to be as open as possible. That is one thing , second is that because they have the technology at hand and they are so used to this you know and they grow virtually born into that. So they don't feel many of them they don't feel it strange just to put a recording machine there while the taalim is going on huh. But once again the teacher needs to tell them give them a lesson in courtesy and this not courtesy that is only for Hindustani music anywhere if you are going to record you request. If you are going to click a picture you request you know and the teacher might say okay you know go ahead.
AP: Yes, definitely one thing is that although they have the technology at hand and the avenues of sourcing material it is not always that they are listening to a multitude of recordings or forms of music you know. They may be very narrow, narrow minded in their approach to listening so it is for the teacher to tell them how to harness these tools of listening and to be as open as possible. That is one thing , second is that because they have the technology at hand and they are so used to this you know and they grow virtually born into that. So they don't feel many of them they don't feel it strange just to put a recording machine there while the taalim is going on huh. But once again the teacher needs to tell them give them a lesson in courtesy and this not courtesy that is only for Hindustani music anywhere if you are going to record you request. If you are going to click a picture you request you know and the teacher might say okay you know go ahead.
AP: I have to tell you that I sometimes say no, don't do it because you rely on that you know okay woh toh hai na apne paas recording
TN: So you're not listening
AP: you're not really listening so I say, no you first learn then if you want as a reference. So on a day to day basis on a case to case basis I decide and then I'm a bit less democratic about that and so that's how I want to do it and I cannot have another say in the matter, unless somebody reasons with me and tells me no no this let's say if somebody is going away for two weeks I would perhaps record material and give that person material, willingly you know I will volunteer but if somebody is coming every two days what do you need that for.
AP: I have to tell you that I sometimes say no, don't do it because you rely on that you know okay woh toh hai na apne paas recording
TN: So you're not listening
AP: you're not really listening so I say, no you first learn then if you want as a reference. So on a day to day basis on a case to case basis I decide and then I'm a bit less democratic about that and so that's how I want to do it and I cannot have another say in the matter, unless somebody reasons with me and tells me no no this let's say if somebody is going away for two weeks I would perhaps record material and give that person material, willingly you know I will volunteer but if somebody is coming every two days what do you need that for.
TN: This is a question about really in the old days it would be migration in today's times it is called travelling. So like I can imagine that a Bade Ghulam Ali Khan would come from wherever into Bombay spend a few months go away come back and the railways made it possible for a lot people to travel...
AP: Yes, yes
TN: from Abdul Karim Khan to whoever so you have music in Dharwad you have music in Mysore wherever right. What do you see as a difference and they all either migrated in a permanent or semi-permanent fashion and we call it migration only because they stayed for a longer period of time, whereas you go to Calcutta for one day, Delhi for 3 hours or wherever. What...How does this impact how music is both performed and perceived and listened to?
TN: This is a question about really in the old days it would be migration in today's times it is called travelling. So like I can imagine that a Bade Ghulam Ali Khan would come from wherever into Bombay spend a few months go away come back and the railways made it possible for a lot people to travel...
AP: Yes, yes
TN: from Abdul Karim Khan to whoever so you have music in Dharwad you have music in Mysore wherever right. What do you see as a difference and they all either migrated in a permanent or semi-permanent fashion and we call it migration only because they stayed for a longer period of time, whereas you go to Calcutta for one day, Delhi for 3 hours or wherever. What...How does this impact how music is both performed and perceived and listened to?
AP: For one thing it can tire the musician. Going through...
TN: Even though you are flying and not taking the Indian Railways
AP: Ya, in fact more so because of flying so you have anti-gravity, so but yeah on a more serious note that was possible at that point a: because probably the musician perhaps wanted it like that and travel was not possible everyday like you have air travel today.
The second thing was patronage was there even to a limited extent you know.
TN: In a place like Bombay. Ya
AP: For one thing it can tire the musician. Going through...
TN: Even though you are flying and not taking the Indian Railways
AP: Ya, in fact more so because of flying so you have anti-gravity, so but yeah on a more serious note that was possible at that point a: because probably the musician perhaps wanted it like that and travel was not possible everyday like you have air travel today.
The second thing was patronage was there even to a limited extent you know.
TN: In a place like Bombay. Ya
AP: Whether Bombay or anywhere you go to. I remember the Manjeshwar's telling me Mr. Manjeshwar. Dinkar Manieshwar he would say that his father had a huge property in Manjeshwar Rehmat Khan Saab, Abdul Karim Khan Saab would come there and stay for days together there was a separate quarter for them so now this kind of thing I go today to Kolkata the organiser will please get ha out from that hotel 12o'clock is your check out time.
TN: We are not going to pay you for 3 months
AP: So I'm happy to stay for 5 days you know... no no but really I mean certain practical decisions you have to make and as long as it doesn't take away from the actual music making. I don't really believe that if you space out your concerts let's say you do one concert in a month so in a year you do 12 concerts. First of all it's unrealistic huh for a professional to do this, professional performer to do this it's not commercially viable unless you are some whatever, unless you are Shahrukh Khan really it's not.
AP: Whether Bombay or anywhere you go to. I remember the Manjeshwar's telling me Mr. Manjeshwar. Dinkar Manieshwar he would say that his father had a huge property in Manjeshwar Rehmat Khan Saab, Abdul Karim Khan Saab would come there and stay for days together there was a separate quarter for them so now this kind of thing I go today to Kolkata the organiser will please get ha out from that hotel 12o'clock is your check out time.
TN: We are not going to pay you for 3 months
AP: So I'm happy to stay for 5 days you know... no no but really I mean certain practical decisions you have to make and as long as it doesn't take away from the actual music making. I don't really believe that if you space out your concerts let's say you do one concert in a month so in a year you do 12 concerts. First of all it's unrealistic huh for a professional to do this, professional performer to do this it's not commercially viable unless you are some whatever, unless you are Shahrukh Khan really it's not.
AP: A Hindustani music practitioner cannot do that 12 concerts in a year you can't do that. 2 is that just because you space it out it doesn't mean you are going to be more creative huh that you are going to be more passionate with your music and that if you have a cluttered programme you are going to be less creative it doesn't work like a one to one correspondence you know. There are if's and but's in every case so I think travel yes you are right that it's very different from what it was earlier but we have to live with it na.
AP: A Hindustani music practitioner cannot do that, 12 concerts in a year you can't do that. 2 is that just because you space it out it doesn't mean you are going to be more creative huh, that you are going to be more passionate with your music, and that if you have a cluttered programme you are going to be less creative. It doesn't work like a one to one correspondence you know. There are if's and but's in every case, so I think travel yes you are right that it's very different from what it was earlier but we have to live with it na.
TN: No, sure I was just wondering how it might have changed the nature of music
AP: I'll tell you also that today now for instance if I'm teaching I'm not teaching in classroom as I said so what do I do I have to find a way out I want to teach, there are students who want to learn from me. I want to teach because I want to learn I don't want to teach because I'm some guru or something you know.
TN: No, sure I was just wondering how it might have changed the nature of music
AP: I'll tell you also that today now for instance if I'm teaching I'm not teaching in classroom as I said so what do I do I have to find a way out I want to teach, there are students who want to learn from me. I want to teach because I want to learn I don't want to teach because I'm some guru or something you know.
AP: I want to teach because from every teaching every lesson I get to learn a lot you know I get to introspect stuff that I would have otherwise taken for granted in terms of repertoire, in terms of all kinds of performance practice, in terms of technique ha... all manner of things you know because I have to finally articulate to the student that this is the way you know. So I get to learn and therefore I always look forward to the teaching experience. Now what do I do if I'm travelling every other day. So the next thing is to send out an sms on whatsapp or whatever that I'm going to be here from so and so date to so and so date, whoever wants can contact me, and it's a first come first serve thing you know then.
AP: I want to teach because from every teaching every lesson I get to learn a lot you know, I get to introspect stuff that I would have otherwise taken for granted, in terms of repertoire, in terms of all kinds of performance practice, in terms of technique ha... all manner of things you know, because I have to finally articulate to the student that this is the way you know. So I get to learn and therefore I always look forward to the teaching experience. Now what do I do if I'm travelling every other day. So the next thing is to send out an sms on whatsapp or whatever that I'm going to be here from so and so date to so and so date, whoever wants can contact me, and it's a first come first serve thing you know then.
TN: So these are not regular students, these are people who sometimes
AP: These are regular students... regular students
TN: Oh even the regular students... I'm in town on these days. Ah I see okay
AP: Beacause I don't ...every Tuesday and Friday I'll teach. There's nothing like that you know
TN: Right... right
AP: When I'm in town and also the door is open for them to contact me at any point on email, send me... and I always encourage that send me a recording so I'll check it, how it is, you know. So wherever I am I am constantly doing that.
TN: So these are not regular students these are people who sometimes
AP: These are regular students... regular students
TN: Oh even the regular students... I'm in town on these days. Ah I see okay
AP: Beacause I don't every Tuesday and Friday I'll teach. There's nothing like that you know
TN: Right... right
AP: When I'm in town and also the door is open for them to contact me at any point on email, send me... and I always encourage that send me a recording so I'll check it how it is you know. So wherever I am I constantly doing that.
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