Radia Tapes: 079 - Radia, M. K. Venu (10:16:52)
Duration: 00:25:29; Aspect Ratio: 1.250:1; Lightness: 0.046; Volume: 0.269; Cuts per Minute: 1.177; Words per Minute: 190.171
(Phone rings)
Niira: Venu?
Venu: Hi, Niira, how are you?
N: I'm fine, how are you?
V: Yeah, do you have a minute?
N: Yeah yeah, go ahead.
V: Niira, I read this interesting piece in Mint yesterday which raises a point uh -
V: - which you and I were discussing two days ago on whether this whole, this MoU between two private parties...
V: ...in which...which states that uh...that 60:40 ratio, you know, gas -
V: - Now, isn't that the point that you are also talking about, whether such an agreement uh, with, uh...
V:...with what is deemed as national resource, whether such an agreement can stand -
V: - as scrutiny of law, constitutional law.
N: I would imagine not.
V: That's it,
na, so...the judgment actually quotes parts of this MoU,
V: - and it makes the MoU as a basis for saying they should -
N: - Yeah, it's the central point, to everything that is being said (inaudible, they overlap while speaking)...to recognise the production sharing contract.
V: It's a core basis for the court to say that, "Go back to the mother and settle the issue",
na<?i>
N: Yeah, yeah, but basically what he's - you know, what the...
N: The whole focus of the judgment is you know, it's something between the both of you, it doesn't really concern the country.
N: The production sharing agreement I am not so sure whether he...I mean, the judge is saying.
N: The production sharing agreement doesn't say that it is a government pur - something within the purview of the government.
V: Okay, okay.
N: - You go ahead and settle your MoU because we challenged the value of the MoU and he says the MoU is -
N: - already got sanctity because you have used it for its brand, you know, when you did the merger, the MoU quoted several areas -
N: - that needed to be demerged so you demerge -
N: - the brand, you demerge real estate, you demerge the businesses, how can you say that in the case of gas -
N: - this MoU doesn't apply? Our argument to that was that because we are only an operator -
N: - the price of the gas is not in our control, it's in the control of the government.
V: Yeah, yeah yeah.
N: Therefore, we have no problem in giving him the gas as long as he has somewhere to put it because we are not honouring that part of it -
N: We are saying we honour that agreement...
V:
Haan, haan haan, haan. (Yes, yes yes, yes.)
N: But what we don't accept, and what we cannot accept, is that the price is not in our purview, because even the MoU says "subject to NTPC price".
N: The NTPC agreement says "subject to government approval."
V: Yeah, yeah, hmmm hmm hmm.
N: But he says, I'm sorry, please go back to your mother and resolve it.
V: Niira can I - I wanna speak to one constitutional lawyer and figure our what are the constitutional provisions which can -
V: - be invoked in this instance, you know, where a national resource not being subject to you know, some agreement between private parties.
V: Is there a, can you get me some inputs from some constitutional lawyers? Like Nariman on somebody.
N: Venu, difficult. Because they're all - most of them are engaged in this battle now, right?
V: No no, I'm not saying formally. I'm not saying I want to quote any of those guys -
V: - I...I just want, I'm sure you would've consulted some constitutional lawyers and if they're saying -
V: - they're making some arguments, can I have those arguments? That's all.
N: Venu, difficult.
V: Difficult, huh?
N: Yeah, difficult because you know, um, one: I have to go back to the client and get it from them.
N: And they will not want to discuss those -
V: Ah, maybe because maybe they would want to keep those as their trump card to be used later
na, so -
N: But I don't know whether it's for us...I think it's for the government.
(inaudible, both speaking at the same time.)
V: What do you make of this Deora statement where we will defend uh...our whatever, national uh, claim over our resource, whatever, you know?
V: He said something, no?
N: Mmhmm.
V: Huh?
N: I'm sorry, I didn't uh...I just got distracted uh...
V: There's a statement of Deora that we...government will defend it's interests. National interests.
V: We'll defend national interest with regard to ga - you know?
N: Would there be any doubt in that, I mean you see, the fact that Anil has gone to him and -
N: - I think he's met him, He has told him that please protect my agreement.
V: Hmm.
N: I would imagine that anybody in the government is saying that you know, sure -
N: - you know, government's not going to lose out on it, no?
V: Yeah yeah yeah.
N: - stand the scrutiny the government will come under -
V: - anyway, Niira can I have the...I don't have the full court order, can I have a copy of the -
V: - court order?
N: Hmm, I'll forward it to you.
V: Yeah, because I want to see all the references to the MoU in that order.
N: Mmhmm. You're writing an edit?
V: Hmm, I'm thinking of writing an edit page article...sometime, you know, later, hmm.
N: Mmhmm. What are you saying, MoU doesn't work, is it?
V: No no, I just want to see whether this...I just want to raise a larger point -
V: - in regard to (sic), in regard to how national resources, how should the nation treat uh -
V: - uh...you know national resources, scarce national resources vis a vis -
V: - uh, you know...commercial private agreements.
N: You see, um, Venu, then don't forget that spectrum is a similar issue, huh.
V: Hmm hmm hmm.
N: Spectrum becomes the same thing. Coal is a similar issue.
V: Yeah, yeah yeah.
N: Iron ore, you know -
N: - these are all very critical. Sunil Jain was on the phone day before yesterday.
V: You got it, I want to broaden the argument, you know.
N: Yeah, I'm saying, you see, at the end of the day when you're looking at - you have to look, I mean -
N: - every situation, I'm sorry, refering to Anil again, but in every situation he has tried to garner, um -
N: - natural resource- there is something Mr. Tata mentioned, very interesting, again, when we were discussing this judgment when it came out on Monday.
N: I'd spoken to him in the evening. He said, you know Niira, have you looked at it, wherever we've gone and developed mines or looked at um -
N: - you know, setting up plants, we've built a culture of CSR around it; we've done stuff for the people there, you know?
N: We've really, we've really...If you look at the power plants these people are coming up with, in Shahpur or wherever...
N:...even in the case of Dadri, you know, he says they haven't even started an iota of looking at development.
N: In Singur, we didn't make it. It could work out, or you know - but we went there irrespective and we continued to do work for -
N: - we, for the common man there.
V: Hmm, hmm hmm.
N: So one, you garner natural resources...
V: Hmm, hmm hmm.
N: You want it at your price, you make profit, but then you don't even in anyway do any other factor of CSR or anything to give back to society.
V: Hmm hmm, true.
Chal, woh toh khair, (Anyway) that's a different culture,
na, woh culture
hai nahin in logon ka -
N:
Nahin, par yeh galat hai na, Venu (No, but this is wrong, isn't it, Venu?)
Yeh baat hi galat hai, (this whole thing is wrong), basically what you're saying is it doesn't matter which brother, right? At least I can -
N: - say for Mukesh that in the case of Rajmundi and all that and Jamnagar, those guys have done some fabulous work.
V: Yeah yeah yeah, I know.
N: You know, but I'm seeing that there is a - there is no culture of looking -
N: - at even giving back, even starting, (inaudible).
V: There is no culture.
V:
Wahaan pe history, tradition,
aisa kuch hai hi nahin, na (There is no such thing as history or tradition over there. It's a, after all, Niira, it's a 30 year old group,
na.
V: When they started rising, say, from the 80s. So there is no culture, no history, no tradition of giving back.
N: No, but Venu, you know, Anand Mahendra, let's take him as an example, he's also someone who's just come up on the -
V: No he's done a lot, he's -
N: - He's done a lot!
V: - Yeah, that greening of that hills, you know.
N: Yeah, he's done a lot, even Vedanta for that matter -
N: - You know, a group that we all sort of look at with great suspicion, I have seen what they have done up in uh -
N: - Lanjigarh...I mean, I was there in Lanjigarh on their aluminium plant, it's unbelievable what they've done for the tribals there.
V: Yeah, yeah, hmm.
N: So the point is...you know, you're only fighting for your right and your personal, you think that -
N: - this belongs to you, as - this is, you know, this is your by right!
V: Hmm, hmm.
N: This is pathetic. I'll send you the judgment, I'll email you the judgment, uh -
N: - the question of us not challenging it I think between you and me, in confidence, obviously -
N: - because it's not formal, hardly arises, it's going to be challenged.
V: Of course it'll be challenged, that goes without saying, you know.
N: Yeah, yeah yeah. And all the -
V: No, I I I just -
(Inaudible, both speaking at the same time)
V: Niira, if you can just give me, just say a couple of days before you actually go to challenge, I just want -
V: - one or two critical constitutional provisions under which you're going to challenge it, you know.
V: That's what I'm looking for.
N: Venu, we would not - that would be something that the government would have to look at.
V: Yeah I know, but -
N: Why don't you meet Murli?
V: No I'm , I'll be meeting him. Yeah, yeah.
N: No i get you. Okay, I'll also examine, and I'll -
N: - I'll have a word with -
V: No no, I -
N: - informally I'll try and extract -
V: No no, I, I, I...I take your point that it's the government that will do it, but then you -
V: - I'm sure you'd also know that,
na, keep track of that,
na.
N:
Haan, haan.
N: Okay, gimme a - okay, I'll take it from them, informally.
V: I just want it informally, that's all.
N: Okay, but Venu, one more thing. It slipped my mind now. Oh, it slipped my mind. Haha, sorry, something -
V: No.
N: - else slipped my mind, I was gonna say something.
V: About this case or something else?
N: Yeah, no no, about this case only, it's uh...it was about this case, it just slipped my mind. Yeah no, Desh Chatterjee yesterday -
N: - he went on about the fact that there was some board meeting that happened and -
N - kept on sending messages and queries to Manoj. There was absolutely no board meeting. I mean, I don't where they get panicked about and you know -
N: - in their whole competing with CNBC and you know?
V: Yeah yeah, currently -
N: ... losing their mind!
V: Hmm.
N: You can;t, you can;t, I mean seriously, if there's a board meeting we'll tell you there's a board meeting you know?
V: Yeah, and board meetings are no secret. You announce the stock exchange also, ya!
N: Absolutely!
N: So there was no mee - there was no board meeting. Then, the second rumour that they were talks going on in Sewri and in Sea Wind -
N: - you know, in Sea Wind Mukesh and Anil were talking with the mother and in Sewri uh, you know, two parties, RIL and RNRL -
N: - and the, naming(?), Mukesh was sitting very much in Maker. The people they were naming who were in Sewri were -
N: - very much sitting in Maker Chambe - Maker (chuckles). You know, desperate.
V: Yeah, hmm.
N: Seriously desperate.
V: Yeah, that is because it's a new channel,
na.
V: What do you think of the channel, have you seen it?
N: Yeah, it's looking good.
V: Yeah, it has energy, ya!
N: Yeah, it's got energy.
(Inaudible, both speaking at the same time.)
N: - you've certainly got CNBC worried.
V: Yeah, because they also started getting some reporters from Mint to come on the channel, because see, our main -
V: - unique selling point is 150 reporters on the ground! So now Raghav...Raghav was having it easy -
V: - he was, without any reporters
woh apna chala raha tha (he was making it work), now he'll have to scale up a little, you know?
N: I was horrified at the sort of news that CNBC was doing with Siddharth Zarabi.
V:
Haan, woh (Yes, him) he's a -
N: He kept on maintaining, the whole week he has been maintaining that the 3G spectrum will go to bid on the 17th of August.
V: Hmm, hmm hmm.
N: And WiMAX will be bid on the 19th of August.
N: So (inaudible), it's completely wrong, it'll go to cabinet in about a month's time, the process time I asked Mr. Raja, what will it take?
N: He said Niira, earliest we will bid - call for bids, will be October or November.
V: That is a - what Zarabi is...you know, plugging somebody's line, you know.
N: Of course, you know where he's coming from.
V:
Haan haan (Yes yes)
(They laugh)
N: Yeah, but I couldn't understand, because the guy doesn't have money to bid.
V: Yeah, yeah.
N: So I don't understand. Anyway.
V: I got a I dont know whether you saw, yesterday -
V: - evening, uh...we showed uh, this, we had a uh...
V: I'd got Montek to participate in a round table on some big ideas.
V: We showed on ET, yesterday. Arnab Goswami moderated that, you know.
N: No I didn't see that. But seriously, Venu, you don't want to put Arnab on ETNow, you'll destroy it.
V: No no no, it's (laughter), this is just a, this is Vinit Jain's idea of some sort of -
V: - uh, synergy, until the budget. So that you know, once ETNow gets rolling,
V: then it moves on its own, you know.
N: No, I know, but if you ask him.
(Inaudible, both speaking at the same time.)
N: No no no, from a serious point of view, I'll tell you, and I said this to Rahul also. And I said this to Ravi Dhaliwal.
N: If you asking me today that I can - out of any of my CEOs, out of the hundred CEOs that we have, that we manage -
N: - not one of them wants to go on an Arnab show.
V: No but they will go - yeah yeah - no but we'll eventually have people like Swami, you know, and others - our economic fellow will do uh -
N: - Yeah, and you've got Vir coming in with the tycoons.
V: Yeah.
N: And on CNBC and remember that Vir will leverage his relationships, and remember, he's a friend, so you know, I will, you know -
N: - that will happen.
V: In fact I, I immediately sent a message to Rahul saying that we must have a counter to the Vir interviewing tycoons, you know -
V: - we also need somebody, you know -
N: Yeah, but not any of the guys which you've got in ETNow right now.
V: No no no, we have to get (inaudible) -
N: It'll have to be someone like you, or it'll have to be somebody else -
N: - you cannot have anybody you know, who...so that is going to happen, he's already request has come in (sic) -
N: - and I know all my clients have a comfort factor with him so it doesn't matter which channel he's on.
V: Yeah, yeah yeah.
N: When it's Vir, they're all very comfortable.
V: Does he have a comfort factor with somebody like say, Karan Thapar?
N: Not at all.
V: No,
na?
N: Not at all. NOT AT ALL. Their view is...he's like Arnab, no?
V:
Haan, haan. (Yes.)
N: I'll tell you what, Venu, the time has come when - I don't know whether you people are realising it -
N: - I keep on saying it to Rahul whenever I meet him and I see it to - I've said this to Rajiv Verma and uh, Rajinder Narain the other day as well...
N: You see, you've got to understand: corporates today, you know, they're all global, you know. They think different, they're looking at some sort of, they're looking -
N: - at a dignified response, they're looking at an approach which is not in your face, right?
V: Not in your face, yeah.
N: The moment you are - the moment you are screaming out, they're not going to come to you.
V: They're not going to come to you, hmm. That is true.
N: You know, and the case of the budget...
V: Hmm, hmm hmm.
N: I would've been - I'm sure that...look at the response I've got from Sridharan.
N: The response I've got is: unless I get a chairman or the CEO of the Tata company, I don't want a...I gave him a very...
N: Tata group's Chief Economist. He's an incredible guy!
V: He came
na, yesterday? That Bengali gentleman, no?
N: Yeah, Dr. Roy, but no no, let me tell you, they didn't want to take him, you know that?
V: No but I think he's good, I saw him, his comments are very -
N: He's good, he's gonna be on Pranoy's show, he's coming on uh...the budget show -
N: - he's doing News X, he's doing Pranoy, he's doing something with Rajdeep.
V: No but I used...this guy is also good, Niira, I used an article by him: Govind Sankaranarayan.
V: He's a good guy.
N:
Haan, he's good, he's good,
haan.
V: So what happened, you finally did, is Mukesh Ambani writing for ET or not?
N: No he's not, no.
(inaudible)
N: He's not writing and neither is...I mean, he will give you normal quotes for the budget...
V: You know Niira, I'm not joking, I used to tell, much before you uh...you took over the uh -
V: - Reliance account. I used to tell all their top guys that why don't you -
V: - hide Mukesh Ambani like the Tatas hide Ratan Tata, you know, why do you expose him so much, you know, he's -
V: - too big, he should not be seeking the media, you know, so -
N: Correct.
N: So that's been my bone of contention for the last one year, I've been saying please, I'm sorry -
V: Yeah, at that time...
V: That time they used to say no no,
woh Anil Ambani
kar raha hai toh I said no, you should do the opposite, you know, so -
N: We even hide someone like Ravikant, you know, we're pretty selective about how we use our people, but -
N: - here I think one of the things I've said to Mukesh, and now they've actually understood and appreciated and we've got a whole group of people being trained -
N: - on media...
(Inaudible, both speaking at the same time.)
V: - great strategy to hide key people because,
theek hai, the newspaper fellows will be -
V: - upset, but then that, you can't please them all the time,
na (laughs)
N: But then you know Venu, when you have, say you do an interview with him, right -
N: - then at least when you do your interview, you know, you have an element of one there is that mystique, you yourself -
N: - as a journalist will appreciate it because then you can engage at a much higher level with him.
V: Yeah, yeah yeah.
N: You know, it can be far more intellectually stimulating than it is if you just keep on bringing him in your face all the time! He's not a Narayana Murthy, he's not a Dial-a-Court, you know?
V: Yeah yeah, for instance you know, see that system, I can tell you this...in that system you know, we treat, like I speak -
V: - to Sunil Mittal once in a while, uh, and Sunil Mittal is treated as a in-house kind of resource, you know?
V:
Arre usko bulalo! (Oh, just call him!), and he also comes, you know? So that reduces within the in-house, it reduces Sunil Mittal's value, you know?
N: Correct, correct.
V:
Yaar usko bulale, yeh toh kabhi bhi aa jata hai (Oh, call him, he's available at anytime) you know?
N: Correct, correct.
V: I'm just giving you an inside perception, you know?
N: Hmm, hmm.
V: Similarly, Azim Premji
kabhi bhi bulalo, aa jayega, you know (call him at anytime too, he'll be there, you know).
V: And sure enough you - anytime you call, he lands up, you know? Narayana Murthy also lands up any time you call, you know.
N: Even Nandan, for that matter. I mean, Nandan is everywhere. I mean with this Shirin programme on infrastructure...
V: Yeah...
N: I mean, they're just...they're just everywhere. It loses its value, you know. It's just...
N: Yeah, I agree with you, I just. Which is why I can understand why the Tata guys don't do it, you know?
V: Yeah yeah yeah.
V: And the other thing is uh...on TV particularly, you devalue even more, you know.
V: You can just writing an op piece...a good think piece...it's a different uh...you know.
V: Nandan of course, Nandan has a soft spot for Shirin also, I know that, you know.
N: Yeah, of course, yeah.
(Laughter)
N: He has a soft spot for many people, doesn't stop, does he?
(Laughter)
V: He does anything she says, you know.
N: Yeah, yeah, but then he does...but no, I've seen him on so many programmes, you know?
V: Hmm, hmm, yeah.
N: You know, and recently this whole India Brand Foundation that exists
V: Hmm, hmm hmm.
N: Uh, I've been telling -
N: - and I think it was something floated by the government...commerce ministry and uh...CII
N: You've got Suhel and Nandan on there and I keep telling them that, listen, Tarun's been asking me informally, Niira, why isn't it working for us, I said -
N: - it's not working, because you've got brand personalities who are too busy promoting their own brands.
V: Yeah, yeah...
N: You know, you forget - you need to have people who are really serious, I mean, you don't need to have people who really are big and you know, television recognises them.
N: You need people who really seriously will sit back and think about the brand.
V: Brand yeah, so.
N: Yeah, so then they keep on, so there...typical style in India is always, you know, put people and -
N: - with big names on it. It's not necessary. Maybe for television, yes, you need big names 'coz you need to attract TRPS...
N: But now for such organisations.
V: Niira, I wanted to discuss something with you which has been, it's been part of my...
V: ...Mandate for a while uh...me and that Neeti Chopra, brand head?
N: Yeah...
V: You know, we have been thinking of doing a really high level global summit, uh...
V: Where we want to showcase, bring people from top CEOs from abroad, fortune 500 companies, you know, like -
V: - Microsoft head and others. And do a brainstorming (sic) on how...which way is the world...
V: ...moving you know, and how growth- the axis of economic growth is shifting towards Asia, you know?
V: To an emerging market and how even the MNCs, even global corporations are looking at uh...
V:...you know, increasingly shifting their production and everything this side of the world, you know?
N: Right.
V: And how Indian corporates were going global.
V: How they perceive this whole shift in the global axis of economic power, you know?
N: Hmm.
V: So it's a combination of corporate, also bit of...
V: ...global strategic shifts happening in economic, diplomacy, politics, everything, no?
N: Hmm.
V: So...
V: So we were wondering whether we could, at some level you know, use like...
V: Like, from India if there's any group which can really uh, become our knowledge -
V: - partner, it can be Tatas, you know?
N: Yeah, because uh, you probably wanna use companies like Tata Steel -
N: - Tata Motors.
V: Yeah, all this Corus, this, experiences, you know? People share when you -
V: - globalise or when others come here, you know? Eh...because we've spoken to people like Microsoft GE and all, they are -
V: - willing to participate in this and they're willing to come upfront and say that okay, we look at...increasingly we look at shifting our...
V:...turnover and profit increasingly will come from going for next 15 years will come from Asia, you know, so...
N: Yeah...
V: So, and uh -
V: - that sort of a thing you know? And doing some projection, generating some interesting literature, you know?
N: Hmm. Yeah, interesting.
N: Yeah, maybe, she sent me a proposal on this Grow India, which I don't know if you're aware of, I'm working on with Mukesh.
V: Hmm, hmm.
N: Uh, maybe we'll do -
N: - something there which is basically about employment, because that's going to be the big thing, you know?
V:
Haan, the Grow India you told me about.
N: Ah, that's a pretty, you're looking at about a 15 crore support, on that one...
N: So I'll, I'll, once this matter is a little settled -
N: - I'll. You know, I'd got an in principal approval already from him...
V: For the Grow India thing no?
N: Yeah, I mean he said to me - we found the costs a little high -
N: - so what was being put on the table, and then I made her rework the proposal again.
V: I think you told me this three months ago, that Mukesh wanted something around employment and all, you know?
N: Yeah, so that's moving now and uh...maybe we'll do something, I mean, I just -
N: - think that she hasn't thought through her ideas and it's not creative enough.
V:
Haan, haan haan.
N: Actually it concerns both ET and ETNow. So, you know. So hopefully, let's see.
V: Yeah, actually, I'll send you a little...little uh... sort of synopsis of the idea that on this global summit...
V: You have a look at it, it's interesting.
V: Just as an idea you know? This is the kind of thing where we can bring in Prime Minister, you know everybody, you know?
V: The top.
N: Yeah. That's an interesting one. Yeah, send it uh...send it to me, I'll look at it, I'll talk to the Tatas.
V: Yeah.
V: And I'll, I'll send you the basic concept,
theek hai (alright)?
N: Yeah, yeah.
N: Tatas are coming out of their, coming out of the woods, they are doing well now, touchwood.
V: Yeah yeah...you read my last piece, where I've given interesting data -
V: - on how global capital is unfreezing, and you know?
N: Yes yes.
(Inaudible, both speaking at the same time.)
V: You know, Pranab Mukherjee would be a lucky finance minister.
N: Yeah, I sent it to Mr. Tata, by the way.
V:
Accha, you sent that, is it?
N: Yeah I put it on email to him. Because a lot of your pieces, some of the interesting stuff I always select and send off to him because he doesn't read everything. He's stopped reading newspapers, Venu!
V:
Accha.
N: I mean, he's stopped reading Indian newspapers.
(Laughter)
N: He'll glance at them and say, "Oh God, no don't tell me." You know, whenever I ask him, he's -
N: - you know, him and Vishwa Kumar. Even nowadays Gopal, who loves to be there...
V: Hmm, hmm.
N: (inaudible), "Oh God, Niira, please." you know?
N: They're telling me, they've stopped reading! Seriously, I mean Mint is one, I think, he has completely given up on.
N: His uh -
V: And and uh Niira we could also, I mean this global summit, we could also, I mean if -
V: - it appeals to Tata, we can also do it in some, say, out of London, or you know uh...
V: - maybe uh, Singapore, or even Corus...Corus is located where, headquarters? (sic)
N: It's in uh...North. Netherlands. I mean in...Netherlands is the main uh one of the plants -
N: - but it's also in Port Albert. So that's near Birmingham, Nottingham, that side.
V: Yeah, so we could do it out of London, also you know.
N: But yeah, it's got its headquarters in London,
haan, by the way, the plants are located in different parts.
V: Okay, okay.
N: The headquarters is in London.
V: I mean, we want to do it on a big scale but uh, as you know, ET never wants to spend money (laughter).
V: (laughing) So we're looking for sponsorships!
N: I know, I know.
N: No it would be. You'd need sponsorship on something like this.
V: Yeah yeah.
V: Suppose it's...we have say a Microsoft or a GE or a Tata. And you know, some five big boys, you know?
N: But if you look at this for 2010 I think, right?
V: Yeah, 2010 not this year.
N: Yeah yeah.
N: So yeah, and then it'll just be a little. Send me a note, I'll at least run it past them and see what they feel about it and...
V:
Chal I'll I'll send you, huh?
(Tape ends)
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